Hi.

Not many people use a Mac based computer, but here goes.

I have an old Apple Quadra (nostalgic purposes) running OS 8.

When I go to play Lemmings and Oh no! More Lemmings, it asks for a number or something from the manual.

But I bought the Quadra with Lemmings already built in. I didn't get the manual.

Does anyone know where I can get these numbers? Or even a PDF of the manual?
Or even hack the Mac Lemmings game?  :???:
Or apply a patch!

And no one had better suggest using Lemmings 95 or Lemmings on DOS. I actually do have those <and emulate an Amiga too, which is the best version ever apart from the SMS>.

Come on, be helpful!!!

Thanks

JasonXV

If you have ResEdit:

Open the Lemmings application program, and open CODE resource #2.

At offset 0x1F58 (the offsets are the numbers running down the side that show you where you are in the code, change B06D DB60 670C to 3B40 DB60 4E75.

The dialogue box asking for a number will still show up, but you can type in any number and you'll be allowed in.

Thankies :D

But now I have another problem 8-)

NOT ALL OF THE MUSIC PLAYS!

After three or four levels, it just... DIES! >.<

Only a few songs play, including Just Dig!

On a side note, on an old Mac at school, Just Dig played the Can can music.'

This one I have plays a different song.

Could I have a bad "Music" file?

Ta
JasonXV

Sorry, that would be difficult. I guess you're new here, so I'll have to explain from the beginning..... I'm not at home any more, and won't be back until late September. I fell in love with a girl I met on another forum I frequent, and she lives in Australia and I in England, so we decided we'd have to meet up for a while in order to know if our relationship was going to go anywhere. It's going very well, but it does make it a bit tricky for me to access files that are on my computer at home......

WOW congrats!  :thumbsup:

I's got it fixed now any way, the Lemmings music file was altered slightly. The cure was to redownload Lemmings entirely.

But thanks :D

And good luck ^_^  :thumbsup:

There's another hack on the internet somewhere which makes the music work, but I forget it. I think it came from a similar source as the other one, but don't bother asking Ahribar cos it was me who sent it to him. Some walkthrough somewhere.

Going off topic slightly, how faithful is the Mac version? I've heard it can only have 80 lemmings on screen at one time.

Better then the NES's 16 though!

Well actually the PC DOS version also can only handle 80, it's mainly a performance thing I guess.

But it seems that the Mac is an interesting case where it's 3/4-way faithful.  There are some notable differences here and there, but overall it's far more similar to the Amiga/PC/etc. versions than say the NES.

I can't help but speculate that on the Mac, the vertical resolution might be lower or something, so that it's not exactly 160 pixels.  Which could potentially explain things like:

1) basher can bash without stopping after digging down 5 pixels on flat ground.  On PC/Amiga/etc., you need to dig down 6 pixels instead.

2) Tricky 13 ("Ozone Friendly Lemmings") requires 4 bombers to solve on the Mac, but 3 is sufficient on the PC.

3) Mayhem 26:  one of those "roots" protruding from ground can be walked through on PC/Amiga/etc., but can't on the Mac, causing the level to be much harder than intended on the Mac.

4) This is purely visual, but apparently, on the skills toolbar, single-digit numbers like 3 are displayed as " 3" (blank-3) rather than "03".

---------------

This is why I'm getting more and more intrigued about the Mac version.  Too bad I don't think there's a Mac emulator out there at this point, at least not for the PC.

Guess Mac was a little behind eh? But those are pretty minor.

I take it Custlemm is based on DOS Lemmings, then?

Actually, that might not be true after all.  Googling shows some possibilities on that end.  We'll see.

Of course, I'll still probably need to download the Mac version of Lemmings somewhere, not to mention potentially the need to download a suitable version of Mac OS or the like.

Even if there is though, good luck finding roms. Well, that's only an assumption really, but I've searched high and low for Acorn Archemedies roms and have had no luck, despite the emulator being there, haunting me. I can't imagine it being much different with Mac.

Ah well, the real thing is always better. :P

finlay, who is standing behind me, would like to remind everyone that the Mac version also has a really cool unique level (Going Their Separate Ways)  :D

Surprisingly, the Mac emulator thing went much further than I expected.  Check this out:

http://www.ardi.com/ardi.php

One really amazing thing about this is, for demo purposes they actually included the demo version of Mac ONML in the download!  (amongst a few other demo programs)

If it can run the demo version of ONML, hopefully it should have no problem with the full version, assuming I'm able to somehow get hold of the files.

This is a step closer now to having a Mac version of Lemmings and ONML on my PC, and see how the various challenges work out on the Mac.

I seem to have forgotten to make this clear:

The emulator mentioned above (Executor) does not require me to download any sort of ROMs or the Mac OS.

It seems that what they did is to provide their own implementation of the functionalities that reside in the ROM and OS.

This is primarily why I said I was surprised how far I have gotten with the Mac emulation thing.  I fully expected to have to spend an eternity finding an illegal download for the ROM and/or OS.

I found some downloads for Mac versions of Lemmings and ONML, unfortunately, they are compressed archives in the .SIT format.  StuffIt expander should be able to decompress them, but the one that comes with the Executor Mac emulator couldn't seem to do anything with them.

So I'm stuck with the demo ONML for now (thank god they have that at least!)

But even with just the demo, I have verified that many of the tricks/glitches that works on the PC and Amiga also works on the Mac.  I have verified in particular:

1) The Fun 6 glitch (screenshot)
2) The Tame 20 glitch (screenshot)
3) The miner glitch (used for example in Havoc 10 17/21, screenshot)
4) The Mayhem 10 glitch (screenshot)
5) The Wild 15 glitch (screenshot purposely withheld)
6) The glitch I used for the 1-builder 77/80 challenge to Mayhem 17 (screenshot purposely withheld)

I haven't verified more because I'm too impatient to solve the levels and don't have the access codes to go to any particular one in the demo.

Overall, I'd guess that many of the challenges that work for PC will have a good chance of working on the Mac also.

I seem to be wrong on that.  Instead, it seems that the Mac uses high-resolution graphics.

However, I think the underlying game mechanics still use the lower resolution that's standard on the PC and Amiga.  So I quickly discovered one of the heinous problems with playing Lemmings on hi-res:  judging whether you've reached the edge of the cliff can be tricky, because the higher-resolution visuals can trick you into thinking the lemming can walk a little further, when in fact, in the lower-resolution accounting of the game mechanics, you are already at the edge pixel.

Still, aside from that it was nice.  If only I can get a download of the full games that work in Executor...

It took some work, but I finally found a way to get Lemmings into Executor, so I now finally have the Mac version of Lemmings running!

I'm going to take a look at Mayhem 26 now......

Ah, now I see.  No wonder the Mac version of the level is so nasty.  It turns out there were not just 1, but 3 places where the roots protruding out of the dirt ground will block lemmings from walking past!  =8O

So the lose-5-with-10-builders solution that works so well on the PC and Amiga, is swiftly downgraded to a lose 8 solution on the Mac.  But aside from that, the solution still works, and since one of the tricks in that solution allows you to blow thru the second obstacle with just one explosion rather than the usual two, I think using Ahribar's solution and applying that trick should yield a lose-7 solution for the Mac.

I should also add that the Mac version of Just a Minute Part II (and I guess Part 1 also) is officially broken.  I'm sorry, but using the "dumb solution" (#1 bash, #2 dig and bash, RR 99 @ 30 seconds) leaves you with 7 (!) seconds on the clock?!?!?  That's just wrong.  Even on the PC I don't think you'd have that much time left on the clock.

I guess you can say the easier version of Mayhem 27 cancels out the extra difficulty of Mayhem 26.  ;P

The PC version is actually not much better.  While playing Mayhem 16 last weekend, I beat the level with 10 seconds to spare!  I used a solution similar to the "dumb solution" for Mayhem 27, but I assigned bashers to the last few lemmings that would otherwise turn around in the basher's tunnel.

I am pretty sure that the "dumb solution" ccexplore mentioned does work on the PC version, but with just 1 or 2 seconds to spare.

I was unable to get my builderless solution for Taxing 21 to work on the Mac.  On the other hand, the glitch involved in the 6- or 7-builder solution for Mayhem 12 still works on the Mac, but for the same reason I have trouble with Taxing 21, I don't think I can get the 5-builder solution for Mayhem 12 to work.

In general, it seems that miners and bashers detect upcoming steel areas somewhat earlier on the Mac as compared with the PC.

Someday I should try the Windows version of Lemmings and see whether these differences are the result of high resolution graphics or whether instead it's specific to the Mac version.

One other thing of note:  like the Windows version and unlike the DOS version, on the Mac version, you can stretch equally far building to the left as to the right.

This has some important implications for Mayhem 29 for example.  My 77/80 solution that does not build west from the starting platform implicitly used the underlying difference in builder-stretching in order to work correctly, so there's a good chance it won't work on the Mac.  On the other hand, since you can stretch your bridges further even when building to the left, it could well be the case that the 77/80 solution that does build west could work on the Mac despite the water.

The 100% Taxing 6 solution is not possible on the Mac.  The reason again has to do with its more accurate detection of steel area.  I can dig at most one pixel down before becoming "too low" to bash through the steel, and that's not enough for a safe fall.  So basically any solution for the level involving bashing through the steel-terrain boundary will not work on the Mac.

I discovered that the builderless Tame 14 solution I used on the PC doesn't seem to work on the Mac.  But rather than a game-mechanical difference, I think the reason is more of a terrain difference.

But that doesn't mean there isn't another solution that could work.  I'll get to it when I have time.

I verified that it's possible to use just 2 builders to get over the "swamp" in Crazy 8.

On the other hand, I found out also that the 4-builder solution for that level doesn't work on the Mac, because of terrain/mask differences forcing me to use a builder in the process of holding the crowd.  A 5 builder solution might work but hasn't been confirmed yet.  Since you have 7 builders, it's almost certainly possible to get 100% if nothing else.

I haven't completed the solution in full yet, but I have verified that the key moves necessary for the 100% Havoc 2 solution also works on the Mac.  Screenshot available upon request.

It looks like the 98% Wicked 1 solution doesn't work on the Mac.  Then again, I don't even know if it works on the Amiga.

I have verified that the nuke glitch on the PC (where nuking causes the percentage saved to be calculated based on lemmings out when nuking rather than the level total) does not work on the Mac.  Not too surprising, but good to set the record straight.

Ahribar, if you are reading this, can you confirm whether it's true that the "special graphics levels" on the Mac are all black and white?

Black and white is all I could get on the emulator for those 4 levels, and I'm wondering whether it's the emulator, the download, or really the way it is.

I have discovered that the builderless solution to Havoc 5 does not work on the Mac, in fact for two reasons.

One, direct-drop doesn't seem to work.  Ok, no surprise there.

But what is surprising is that, if you have someone else mine while walking in an existing miner's tunnel, it seems like on the Mac you can never mine more than 1 stroke before it gives up.

I have noticed that the mining mask on the Mac doesn't quite give the perfect staircase as it does on the PC and Amiga.  I've always thought though that the difference is too high-resolution to matter game-mechanically.  Maybe not.

Oops, typo, I meant Havoc 6.

Actually, upon reading Ahribar's solution again, it's apparently the case that on the Mac, you can blow the second wall using just one bomber without using any special glitches or tricks, just precision.

So I guess the trick won't help.  So current known minimum lost on that level is still 8 for the Mac.

===============

Although I don't know for sure right now whether these differences have to do with high-res graphics or just the Mac, this strongly suggests that 0xdeadbeef's Java version of Lemmings should take a different approach regarding the interaction between the game mechanics and high-resolution graphics.  We certainly don't need another Mac-Mayhem-26.

At a minimum, I would recommend using the low-res versions of the terrain-removal masks that bashers, miners, diggers and exploders use.

I have verified that the 79/80 solution for Wicked 12 also works on the Mac.  Not that I'm surprised since it's a glitch-free solution; on the other hand, since it almost seems to "depend on luck" on the PC version, it's good to see that it really does work on the Mac also.  (And it's also rather "depend on luck"-ish on the Mac too.)

Wow......... so much news, so much news!

I'm very glad you've done all that work, verifying which tricks work and which don't; I would have had to, otherwise, and since I'm starting my MA from today and want to use my Lemmings spare time to get further with converting my Cheapo levels to my new styles........

You asked whether the special graphics levels are in colour. They are; but there's a glitch when the game is used on more recent systems whereby the background colour is interpreted as terrain........

Another infamous colour difference occurs on Mayhem 14 (Pea Soup); on b/w machines the "peas" are invisible. That's how I know the "special graphics" difference doesn't apply on all colour versions, since I must have first completed Mayhem 22 in colour.

The Mac's Mayhem 27 is very cheap; in fact, you don't even have to be careful about timing when you up the release rate. Do it at any time, and most of the time you should succeed! (This is why I found the Just a Minute levels so hard when I tried to do them on the Genesis...... I thought my Mac solutions were the solutions and was taken aback that they didn't work!)

Another level where the Mac's faster speed comes into play is Mayhem 3, although here this just means that all known solutions work (unlike some versions, such as Genesis); it doesn't provide any extra ones. ccexplore's "if only" solution -- mine with last lemming, bash OWW and dig as you break through, build over trap -- fails on the Mac by only a fraction of a second.

Is there any particular level/solution you especially want me to test out?

I think I'm going to start posting future findings on the Lemmings Challenge thread instead, it just seems to be a more relevant place for these findings.

I'll end my last post on this thread with this:

I verified that the glitch involved in the builderless Tricky 9 solution also works on the Mac.

However, I haven't verified the solution in full yet.

You wouldn't think of it, but doing the "right mouse click" (select only walkers) move is a little harder on the Mac.  Since the Mac mouse only has one button, you get the effect by holding down the "option" key (the key on the Apple keyboard that looks like a 4-leaf clover, which the emulator substitutes with the right-Alt key on the PC) while clicking.

But unfortunately, at least on the emulator, I find that when I hold down the "option" key, I cannot pause and unpause.  The normal key on Mac Lemmings for pause/unpause is just plain "p", and I think when I hold down the "option" key it turns into an "option+p" combination, which I guess the Mac system distinguishes as a different keystroke than plain p.

So it becomes harder to execute right-click moves with precision on the Mac, because I need to first unpause before I can press the "option" key and click.  Whereas on the PC I could just hold down the right mouse button while the game is still paused, and then just unpaused and click with the left button.

I'll let you know if I think of one :P

EDIT: and only after I get some more music........


Actually, the 4-leaf clover is the "command" key (often equivalent to the PC's "control", e.g. command-C is copy); the option key is marked either with the word "option", or "alt" just as it is on a PC.

Yes, we are special and have three buttons where the PC has two. :P

Is it possible for you to say what these glitches etc actually are? And what levels you are referring to without me having to check or think about it (ie names not numbers)?

Oh and can I also complain about the board interface; when I looked to the topic review I thought the first reply listed there was the last posted (ie that they would be in reverse order), and wrote a semi-lengthy reply. Very very annoying.

What is the true solution to mayhem 27 then? I solved it on the Playstation this morning (don't get me started on that version--it's pretty crap), but it was complicated and I almost ran out of time and I thought it was weird cos it never needed that on the mac...

On some newer systems it is true that the background to the special levels is bright blue, instead of black (most levels use dark blue) and interpreted as terrain. But it doesn't always happen, indeed not recently for me, and you surely saw it yourself when we played the other day Ahribar? Or did we not do those levels?

No, I'm pretty sure we didn't look at any of the special graphics levels.

Solutions to Just A Minute one and two are discussed here: http://eng-forum.lemmingswelt.de/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=gamehelp_id;action=display;num=1089510029 -- though as so often it's very hard to say which is the "true" or intended solution.

No we did, I remember now, because I had my edited level which was what an awesome level but with the water at the bottom and the blue trapdoor which I showed you guys.

Ah yes, I remember now :) and you're right, the background didn't get interpreted as terrain on that.

Oh, by the way, I found the original hack, and it was in Ephraim Vishniac's walkthrough (I knew I'd heard his name before!). There was also one to remove level passwords. But the music one must have come from somewhere else. I do seem to remember having a program that patched it for me actually... it might have come from a downloads page somewhere.

Yes, that's where I got it from.

I definitely seem to remember sending you it. You asked me in a pm once, way back. (unfortunately it's long since been deleted)

Um...... I meant the hack, not the music thingie.

So did I.