Since Ive noticed there's still a huge base of lemmings fans, I wondered if we could pool together practicle ideas for a new lemmings game, in the vague hope of attracting support from gamemakers.  

This is my dream idea for it:  super-cute cel shaded and fully 3 dimensional, with large open spaces and rolling landscapes (not flat like lemmings 3d), more like Worm's 3d.  Landscape fully destructable, so you can tunnel and build literally anywhere.  Lots of building options, not just stairs but also ladders pillars etc for really exciting constructions.  Gameplay would involve just mucking about and playing with the interactive landscape :D :D, but with the mission of trying to reach hard to get objects (like pikmin which is another game i love).  Objects could be medallion pieces!  Or maybe teleportation to other levels. There would be less of a puzzle feel to it (though still present and more interesting in 3d) but more a muckaround thing.  Occasionaly lemmings might wonder around and you have to guide them away from cliff edges with mouse, so a hectic task on a large map.  Cute and colourful lemming explosions with 3 dimensional craters!!!

I don't think creating a fully puzzly game would work in the current gamesworld (short attention span of children these days), which is why lemmings hasnt been used.  So my idea is a more playful style.  Please add additional suggestions or other ideas!  Lemmings forever!   :D

forgive my appalingly random use of smileys in that last post...

I don't like the idea of random lemmings running off, but apart from that, it's a good idea.

If we want to attract people for lemmings, we have to make games which are currently very often played. But your idea sounds good.

Seems like it would be hard to prod Sony to make one (since they have the rights, right?) But it wouldn't hurt to try.

The idea of Lemmings in 3D isn't new... the problem is the control system, how to make it "work" in 3D.

In Lemmings 3D they all sort of "walked" in lines... which doesn't feel right. Place a blocker, and a Lemming should relly just walk around them - its 3D after all and they're stupid.

Thats the real problem, figure out how to control masses of them and still keep the "feel" of the original, and then anything bolted on will more or less work.

My pet idea is to reverse it a bit... Have you trying to stop lots of lemmings with AI building and bashing towards a goal while you have to kill them all off.

Killing lemmings was always the fun part! :)

OH NO! :D

But I still like the MMORPG-idea.

The control system is a problem I agree. Lemmings 3d somehow lost all the fun in it.  The problem is that in the 2d lemmings games, the feel was created because you could micromanage almost every pixel would, but this amount of control is not possible in 3d, too many angles.  That was why I had the idea of them running off randomly. I envisage them having a great deal of autonomy, wandering about at will.  With blockers (or attracters if we borrow from tribes) there could be a means of keeping them loosely in one place but part of the fun might be herding them back together as they wander about towards deadly cliffs and lakes...
I know autonomous lemmings is a bit of a change from the original, particularly when we are so used to them moving predictably, but its the only way I see them working in a 3d environment.  The alternative is to have them stand still (like pikmin) but theres no pressure if you can take your time, and that wouldnt be very lemmingsy I feel.
I didnt know that sony had the rights. That is a bummer.  You can't do anything with a PS pad.

I had an idea for a combination of Lemmings and Worms.... there would be two players, each with their own lemmings and exit and set of skills. These would include some Lemmings skills and some weapon-like skills. The object is to get more lemmings home than your opponent, but both of you must get at least one home to pass the level. Levels could therefore combine a puzzle element with free-for-all shootouts!

Dont get me started on worms!! They stole so many ideas from Lemmings its not funny! After all worms is just the combat part of 2 player lemmings, where you take turns instead.

Worms anoys me, 2 player lemmings was MUCH more fun!   :(

I think if you keep it similar to the original Lemmings 3D, with just four directions, but make it more "pixel"-based than the tile-based system Lemmings 3D is. Also, add a level editor!

If you were gonna do a new Lemmings 3D style game, you should try and get flocking and have a lemming "sheepdog" of some kind. That would seem more realistic (if you can apply that term!). :D

Anything that kills the original idea of lemmings would not be of any interest to me. It might as well be another game.

You know what might work... some sort of "maze".

This preserves the directional walking and then lets you direct them with blockers etc...

also means you have to solve the maze and avoid traps hidden in the maze... just like the original.

I think designing it just like Lemmings 3D, but more up-to-date and not so tile-based, but more "3d pixel"-based, would work fine. Don't forget to include a level editor.

hmm... I don't find the idea of rehashing old lemmings games too enticing.  I was initially inspired by the original box art of lemmings, and was hoping for something which could represent the chaos and individual autonomy which you could see there - and similarly the rolling, explorable landscapes. (I can't be the only one to be mesmerised and lost in the box art...wishing I could play a game in a similar world?) I know creating a game of such a nature would be a big change from the convential format of lemmings we are all used to, and would require ambitious designing. But if a free-roaming, intricate-constructing-and-burrowing game was created (with entirely destructable landscapes) was executed well it would be a lot of fun, and an original form of gameplay; and originality in videogaming is a very desirable thing.
I can also see the potential for enemies in such a game...or enemy tribes.  What do you think?

I also liked Mike's idea of 'flocking' - this seems like the most practical way of controlling those suicidal lemmings in a fully 3d environment...

you're really talking about a different kind of game.  Your game is leaning more towards the SimX sort of game, where the objects have complex (or at least not easily human-predictable on the micro-level) autonomous behavior, and you only have relatively indirect control over the objects' behavior.  Things like SimCity, SimAnt, the Sims sort of game.  Also from your description it sounds like there is no specific set goal, which is somewhat like the SimX sort of game.

It's certainly a viable game concept, just that it's quite the opposite of the Lemmings game concept, where your objects have fairly predictable behavior, and you directly manipulate this predictability towards a specific end goal.

Being a different game concept, it's easily the case that some people will only like one and not the other, and some will like both.

We could like this game as simply a new game that featured things similar to Lemmings, you know.  Also, I like this idea: multiple versions.  We could have a version that's war based (your lemmings must use their skills to shape a given landscape to their advantage ie make trenches, walls, hills, bunkers and shelters, etc.  When both sides are out of skills, then the lemmings could become more controllable, as in they won't move unless you tell them to.

You could also have the standard get-around-the-other-dude multiplayer version.  You  could have versions in which multiple players would work together instead of against eahc other to achieve their goal.

You could have a goof-off lemmings, but, there should be, as in Zelda, a good amount of goof off, and tons of puzzling, to make for a grand total of a gigantic amount of good gaming B).

Mkay...oh!  Idea!  A cool kind of 3D Lemmings game could also feature entire underground levels!  Yeah!  Like the original!  That way, you could still maintain that classic pitch blackness and underground sense as in the original.

The attractors thing sounds like a half decent idea.  We should look into how to improve on it.

If we are really serious about this, we first must assign positions and roles.

1-Project manager
  -This person will have the final say on absolutely everything.  They also assign roles to everyone else and coordinate the project.  This is a big job, as the project manager will have to oversee everyone's progress.
2-artists
  -We will need people to visualize what this game will look like.  Artists are vital to structuring the game's atmosphere and need to have a good imagination.
3-composers
  -A game's gotta have music.  Make some.
4-Sound recorders
  -This person should have a good knowledge of how computer sound effects are recorded, saved, and inserted into a game.  They should also be able to make good sounds in accordance to an action in a game.  Requires communication with the main programmer and any artists and/or 3D graphics manipulators.
5-3D manipulator
  -This person would handle all 3d graphics and animation in making the game.  They would require to talk frequently with the artists.
6-concept designer
  -Designs the mechanics of the game.  For example, all tools and how they work.  The objective, the processes used in meeting the objective, etc.
7-Storyliner
  -This person would need to be able to write well laid out stories to cover the movement of the characters in the game.  This job can be light or heavy, depending on where emphasis is put (more emphasis on game play such as original lemmings = less work).
8-Graphics designer
  -This person's job is similar to that of the 3D graphic's manipulator's, but it only inolves making 2D graphics, such as faces and textures that the 3D manipulator uses or a menu.  frequent communication with any artists and/or 3D manipulators would be required.
9-Movie maker
  -This job would need to be done by someone with any knowledge of how to make a movie (such as the one in the beginning of Lemmings Revolution) on the computer.  This could be the same person as the 3D manipulator.
10-Programmer
  -This person is probably one of the most important people.  Without a programmer to code the game, the game would not be.  The programmer would have to use a practical language, not something like Java or Flash.

TOOLS-

we will most likely need...

3D software
a professional game programming language
paper
pencils
colored pencils
scanner(s)
Lined paper
A word processor
A professional graphics program (ie Adobe Photoshop (I have this))
Computers, of course
The internet (duh)

Now, we need people to fill all of these positions, and as a whole we need to have all of the above tools, and everyone participating should already have a computer and the internet.

Hey!  If anyone can find black lemming from the old LU site, please do so!  He has 3D software and knowledge of how to use it (he made good lemmings too).

Roles I think I could play
-artist
-storyliner
-2D graphics mainpulator
-project manager

WELL, THERE'S MY GAMEPLAN, NOW, WHO'S UP FOR THIS??? :lem4ever:

In other words, we need a miracle.  ;P :D

Let's stick with game design at this point, since as we all know pretty much no one here will ever have either the time or expertise to actually create the program.  We can still think about art and gameplay.

Ummm...not necessarily.  Someone knows how to do 3D graphics along with programming it to run--in the old LU they had snapshots of a game they made in 3D.  So, the only things we may have a problem with out of all of these things are a programming language, and maybe a 3D graphics program, but probably not.  I could go back to LU and send black lemming an email (LU is archived) and solve that aspect of things.

Those things aside-we have everything required from atleast one person for each thing.  I have a scanner, computer, internet, colored pencils, a pencil, a professional 2D graphics program (actually, I just remembered: there's a manual on using it for 3D drawings (with wireframes and everything), but I haven't looked at it yet) that may be a 3D program at the same time, paper, lined paper, and a word processor (this is basicly something like Microsoft Word).  So, I have absolutely everything but the programming language.  Unfortunately, that is the hard part.

Oh, and another thing-

Additional job-level designers

and, to get any idea of what we even want to do (like what you said with the design), we have to fill these roles, so that way this thing is given some organization.  If you see a particular role you could fill, feel free to say so!

Oh, and wouldn't game design be where we started out even if we planned to go all the way through with the game?  I'm not saying "Hey!  Let's do this all at once!"  what I'm trying to say is "Let's lay some foundations for this and atleast get it in motion.  If we plan to go ahead with this we should also decide who will do what."

don't underestimate the issue of team management.  It should be quite obvious from this thread that everyone seem to have their own ideas and variations on what the game should be like.  If you can't get a team that agrees on these fundamentals nothing will get done even if the team has all the necessary competencies.

Yes, thanks.  I  could see that, and that was one rason I tried to get the team organized.  Also, that's the reason for having a project manager.  The hard part would be deciding who gets that position.  I think, maybe out of right of having the idea for this in the first place, Kaj should be the project manager.

I didn't plan on this being easy  :D.

What we need is more people to come so that they can say what it is they can do.

We should get Mike in on this.  After all, he also helped with the original lemmings.

After positions are assigned, the project manager can get the team moving.

Yes, but just because you have a project manager doesn't mean people won't back out of the project (remove themselves from the team) if there are serious disagreements.

Anyway, don't want to sound so pessimistic, just want to keep you aware of things.  pessimists should be proved wrong in any case.  ;)  Best of luck to you and your team.

Your fake email addresses are funny.  Thanks for the support.

Oh, and about the project manager thing-yeah, you're right about that too, but there's really no way around this unless two different game versions are made.

Team management is one thing... but you dont need any of this till you get a working prototype...

Programmer+Artist... and in manty cases, just a programmer would get something working to see if the "approch" or "concept" will work.

Forget the rest till you know what your doing, and till you know that its going to work.

Okay...oh wait...I don't see why I didn't just ask you to lead this thing in the first place, I mean, you have experience working with this stuff in a company already.  Just tell us a little more about what to do.

Well, I certianly dont have time do anything like this just now - much as I would like to!

Its fairly simple... work out the basic idea, how the mechanics work the 3D "pixel" removal system and all that, then get a lemming walking over it and doing that.

Then try a few more "ideas" to see if they work... once its "proved", and everyone has seen it and agreed, then and only then do you decide how to organise and write it.

Prototyping is much more fun for a start, since theres no limits on specs, speed or anything... just make sure the bugger works. :)

It has the obvious advantage of having something you can actually play around with rather than just ideas on paper.  But the disadvantage, so to speak, is that it can take time and the appropriate skills to create a prototype, especially since we're talking about 3D.

Incidentally, that reminds me:  [question for Mike] I haven't ever played Lemmings 3D (I might've had a demo version back when I have an older laptop that doesn't do 3D graphics, and I've lost the demo since), how does it do 3D pixels?  Since the standard way to represent 3D graphics is typically using triangle meshes.  And in 3D you don't really deal with actual pixels anyway since in 3D everything has to scale, so the pixels would have to actually be tiny boxes.  But that sounds like a lot of boxes to render if each "pixel" becomes a box.....

Well I'm not Mike, but I can tell you that Lemmings 3D doesn't use a pixel system as you're thinking. It uses sort of a grid, a box taking up one grid space is actually rather large, and a lemming may walk several steps on the same grid space. Any tool given while a lemming is anywhere on that gridspace is assumed to have been given at the same time. Builders go one gridspace over and one gridspace up, for about 6 pieces. Bashers, miners, and diggers all take time to destroy the pieces (they will first look cracked and then finally break). It would make sense if you saw a few screenshots.

Really the system is rather limited, but they managed to make a number of interesting puzzles out of it, and you have to consider that it came out about 10 years ago, and it runs under DOS!

Lemmings 3D ran in DOS!?  Wow!  I never knew that!

Actually, I've never played Lemmings 3D.  Where can I get it?

My currently not in progress Flash version of Lemmings uses a block system similar to that, only it's not 3D.

Yeah, lots of tiny boxes would be a lot of stuff.

Hightmaps (as they are called) uses an X,Z array of hights, and a triangle mesh is placed over the top of it. These are VERY common, and used everywhere, even today (usually in rolling landscapes).

This might still work if you were to use somesort of refining hight map. For example. Your basic grid is 256x256 points. Lets say you blow up something, you can then "refine" a section of it to a higher res, kind of like an oct-tree.

This would let you have far better detail on groud removal, and couldyou could keep going till you hit almost pixel levels.

This is probably the 3D equivalent of what I did on the SNES in allocating blocks when things changed. I had a static set, then allocated ones I could draw into as things changed. It was quite complicated back then being all in assembler, and on a slow machine... but these days, it should be easy enough.

Or you could try the same with voxals... the hightmap is better IMHO though....

:)