I think that the DOS Lemmings and Cheapo Lemmings packs should have different topics.  Here's the Cheapo one.

My newest style, and more importantly, the accompanying level pack (Because, admittedly, the style is designed to benefit MY level design style... although you're welcome to try and make something with it if you wish) is nearly complete. The style itself is about 90-95% complete, and my level pack for it has 21.5/25 levels complete. Expect it in a week maybe.

Has anyone made any levels with my new Sonic Style? <Download here!> (it works if you right click/save target)

I did make one (so far)... I never sent it for some reason... I think I was back-route testing it.

I'm working on a style called The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past.  The name will have to be shortened however, because it's too long.  Right now I'm working on the standards (could someone please give me the original bitmap so I don't mess up the digging/bashing/bombing/mining masks?), then the next thing I'll work on are the lemmings, followed by graphics, objects, sound, and finally the music.

Timballisto, I have the original file... I can't send it to you though, because I don't have your e-mail.

I'm busy on two Cheapo packs...

Lemmings XP - Actually, this is five packs made a ratings. Includes easy and super-hard levels.

Classics for Cheapo: Cheapo -  This is a remake of the original Lemmings 1 levels with the classic style styles we got with Cheapo. There will also be one called Oh No! More Cheapo.

I thought to make a High Security Zone style with lasers and maybe cameras, and a Food style with toasters, forks and so on.

It would be for soon!

MY EMAIL:::::::::::::  jeffrey<NOSPAM>@webcatgraphics.com (remove the <NOSPAM>).

EDIT:  Oops.  I posted as my brother. Srry.  This is really Timballisto.

All I have to say is this. You're gonna get banned! O_O Ha-Ha!

 J/K! B)

Steaver, please upload all your cheapo packs in your Lemming Crazy website. Please! Please! Pllleeeaaassseeee!!!! (x999,999,999.999)

Can't be bothered. But I've got Yahoo Messenger, MSN Messenger and AIM, so I can send them to you on one of those.

Also, about your sig, you said it would be appreciated if no one says bad words at all. I have only one thing to say:

"Bad words."

Why can't you?

Anyway, Dragonslover, how's the vampire and high security zone styles going? After you're finished, you can call level designers.

Vampire style is good. Lemmings are done. There's not a lot of pieces for the landscape, I should add more. Same thing for the objects. I need to work!

For the High Tech Zone style, I began to draw the lemmings (and it's hard). I wanted to do the same movement like the Shadow lemmings in Lemmings 3. For the climbers, I made the lemmings climbed with suckers sticks (you know what I mean?). I haven't see the animation under Cheapo bcs I haven't created the landscape yet.

I need some works again!

Something that I wanted to try in this style: Lasers. Imagine lasers that are, one moment open, the other moment close and that toggles. I guess is it possible by creating an object without using the same object size for each frame and I guess that it's something new in Lemmings. Imagine On/Off objects! :D

For anyone stuck on Oblivion levels, I've recorded a video that shows how to complete the most basic one... once you know that, Temple Of Oblivion is easy... Castle and Dungeon both have other hard points though.

Check on Lemming Crazy for a download.

Also, since I'm adding it, I might as well also add my new packs. So I guess you're getting what you wished for, IceEagle! ^_^ The packs aren't up at the time of posting this message, I'll let you know when they're up.

Okay, I'm not going to upload L+2 or LR3 yet(I might later), but I've uploaded Ultimate Challenges 5, 6 and 7. You'll need to redownload the style files for UC6 and UC7, I don't think you need to for UC5 though.

Note that UC6 also requires that you have the style file from Lemming Racers 2 or higher. You can download LR2 on the site as well.

Thanks, but I got two problems.

One - the Ultimate Challenge 5 set has a level problem with Level 3: the stats says: "No Level Selected" and there is no map.

Two - the Ultimate Challenge 7 set have a level problem with Level 4: same as Level 3 of UC5.

I tested them both, and they work fine.

Those levels are "Zanmato" and "Absolute Ultimate Challenge", if anyone needs the names to test it for themselves.

Actually, I have completed the 25 level set for my style, although the style itself isn't quite complete... it functions just fine though. You want me to upload the levels now or wait until I refine some things in the style?

UIAII (Upload it as it is)

Ok, here's the style and set file. 25 levels total, though there are "repeat" levels, like in original Lemmings.

Also, the style is a bit ... strange in places. I warned you. Nothing offensive, though.

They don't work for me. Please re-upload and put the UCs in zip folders.

Try redownloading first.

I did that, but it's still that way. Can you re-upload and put in zip packs, please? You zipped UCs 1-4, so you should zip UCs 5-7 too.

Also, can you please upload L+2?

Don't worry, I'll upload Lemmings+ 2 and Lemming Racers 3 eventually.

L+2 uploaded. LR3 still not uploaded.

It's just to say that my High Tech Lemmings Style is done! B)

Well... I only need to create levels and it's okay! :P

Steaver, you were right, I can't create On/Off objects the fire zone is still in the invisible object.

Wow!

How's the Vampire style and Food style going? After you finish your High Tech set, you can call level designers. I might be one too, but I'll see.

IceEagle, did you try L+2?

Well... for Vampire Lemmings, I took the landscape on another game and there wasn't a lot of terrain pieces. Also, I have a lot of harmless objects from the game. I can say that the style is done, but there will haven't a lot of traps and terrain pieces. I will check about it maybe more later.

For Kitchen Lemmings (with Lemmings Chefs :D), I'll create it soon, right after creating my levels for the High Tech Lemmings.

Hi! I'm not dead  ;P
Î have played Insane Steve Cheapo set and it's a good set but some of the levels don't work  :-( Why?
Is your set a beta version or something?

Odd... All the levels work right when I play it... Hold on.

I think that I need style files that I don't have. Which are required? I have the one that you have put in this topic for download. I need more?

Yes...well...not all of them. Some of them look harder than I think. I'm not good at hard levels! Just easy, simple ones. Indirect Route is a very good level.   :D

Steaver, what makes you say that Oblivion 4 isn't an Oblivion level, and why didn't you put it in L+2?

I didn't put it in because it's not very good.


And it's not an oblivion level because it doesn't use the Oblivion trick.

Well, even if it doesn't use the Oblivion trick, I still consider it an Oblivion level.

And...what happened to the level design of Castle of Oblivion? Where is the word "OBLIVION?"

I've been thinking of an idea: To make Version 4 of Lemmings Racers, which includes streetlights and retarded chickens, and real-life cars. Also, there's an oil slick which makes the lemmings slip.

I'm compiling a level set for Cheapo called the "Lost Levels" -- basically, levels I made for Cheapo that are playable, but for some reason were never formally released. There's a lot of packs that you need to play it... I'll have to compile those, as well.

Dunno about retarded chickens, and I don't know where I'm gonna get the pics of real cars that are suitable for a style file, but I will add streetlights in the next LR.

What about the oil slick?

Retarded chickens can be used as traps.

You can just draw the racing cars instead.

I'm asking this question again: Where is the word "OBLIVION" in the level "Castle of Oblivion?"

It isn't in there.

In the other levels, it's placed on the platform the Oblivion trick is used on. However, the platform does not have room for this in Castle Of Oblivion.

What was that for, Conway? Just curious.

Check bit further down on the topic list, for the "Fewer Builders Challenge (Downloadable Pack)" topic, for my newest pack. It's in a new topic because... it's unique!

Ice Eagle, it was because Timbalisto accidentally posted in his brother's name, and I finally found a use for the microphone.

So that's your voice, isn't it?

Yes, but that's not how I speak!

I've done a load of Levels, if you want them Add Me to MSN adam160591[at]gmail[dot]com they include som SEGA Levels and some very confusing levels.

My first public level pack is now on Lemming Crazy, please do comment on it as it would help very much. Cheers, Adam

Erm, Steaver? You have Adam's set saved as an HTML document, and not as a playable .set file. You may want to re-send your set as a .ZIP, Adam.

And can you E-mail your set to me? stem_balo@sbcglobal.net. Thank you.

Oops :-[. Fixed.

My Lost Levels compilation is complete... I need to gather the style files for them, though. Anyone who wants it before I figure out where I can upload it can E-mail me at stem_balo@sbcglobal.net.

I have also begun "Insane Steve's MS Paint Revenge!" , The sequel to "Insane Steve's MS Paint Adventure". I have 2 levels so far. One is the most evil, terrible joke ever, but the joke itself is a bit obtuse.

I've done an 18 level set and a 31 level set named Isulemms and Isulemms2 respectively. Both are posted on the garjen site:
http://www.garjen.co.uk/CheapoLemmings.php#Packs

Or you could alternatively download them here

My current project is to recreate the four 30 level sets I have in my notebooks. Some of the levels will be levels in other Cheapo packs I made, some will be levels I had in LemEdit but aren't in Cheapo yet, and some will be unseen by anyone. I don't know when or if this will ever get done.

My current project is a series of sets each with 30 levels. As in the original Lemmings, the sets ascend in difficulty, and I use a rotating order for the musics. The first set is complete and should be available on Lemming Crazy as soon as Adam gets round to putting it up.

(EDIT: but of course, anyone who wants it sooner only has to e-mail me at zarathustra47@yahoo.com)

(and Steve, are you going to send your comments any time soon? not that I'm nagging... but since I've already started on the second set, it would be good to know now what I need to improve in the first!)

I'm currently working on a few categorized sets. I've only thought up 5 different categories at the moment, these are: Beginner, Cheap tricks, Precision, Perfection and Repetition. I'll probably add more when I think of them.

Edit: Nope, Scrapped that. I'll split 120 levels into four sets. 55 levels complete so far

Another Edit: Now I've got about 65 levels done, I'm not making very fast progression on this...

Edit3: I've done a complete overhaul on this so I now only have about 40 levels done. I may release a 2nd pre-release version with 10 levels per set soon. Watch this space.

Essman, I'm currently up to Mayhem 18 in your Cheapo recreation levels. Most of them are surprisingly easy, but 'Good Luck. . .' will take some thought.

 Levels that I thought were a little too easy for their place in the game include Taxing 18 'Quote: That's a crazy level', Taxing 22 'More tremolo blooz', Taxing 23 'Teach a new trick to an old lemming', Mayhem 7 'Quote: What a titanic level!', Mayhem 9 'Essentially the same', Mayhem 13 'Surrounded by fakeness', and Mayhem 16 'Hold on to your ego'. I know you probably made these levels a whle ago, but please tell me (here or by pm) what your intended solutions are to these.

 You have some very good and enjoyable levels, Essman! I especially like Tricky 7 'They wanna stop the lemmings', Tricky 25 'It's not time tp panic, Taxing 4 'Majorly annoying', and Mayhem 6 'Actual insanity'.

 Please make some harder levels!

 That's it for now.

Don't worry. I'm working on my own 120-level set. Some of the later ones are just  X_X in nature. You've probably played a few of them.

Interesting, I didn't have much trouble with that level, I'm sure there were earlier Mayhem levels that I found harder.  But anyhow, good luck.


Which reminds me, you didn't find Taxing 25 and Mayhem 4 to be troublesome???  Especially Mayhem 4, which at least for me required far more precision than any other level in the set I can think of.  Makes me wonder if there's an easier way to solve it.  (btw I have already finished all 120 levels.)

Incidentally, given a choice of new harder levels and having the next version of Cheapo done sooner, which would you choose?

(Not that in real life you're likely to have an actual choice, since Essman seemed to have said that he's done enough levelmaking with those 120.  :))

Some levels actually have errors in them that were introduced during the conversion process. They are:
Taxing 12, 23 and 24, and Mayhem 4 and 13. Two of those levels had fake exits, which don't seem to work at all, so I removed them.

I updated a new version of the set files to the same locataion: <Download here>


I still wanted casual players to complete the mayhem levels, so I didn't make them super hard. If I make new levels, it will be after I complete the new game (which I am still working on).

Forgot to reply to these:


Soon I'll have time to look at those levels and I'll PM you or something. I'll tell you now that for some levels, I cannot remember at all what my original intended solution was (like most mayhem levels).


Thanks!

I'm only up to the end of Tricky, but I too am enjoying the levels so far. I think Tricky 19 is rather too hard for its position.

By far my favourite is Tricky 28, which I can see has a couple of solutions. I wonder, which was your preferred solution? Mine is: bomb the second link in the chain at its top-right and bottom-left. Make a builder to overhang the link so that the 12th brick comes above the remaining part of the link, so the lemmings fall into the link and turn round -- while the builder is doing this delay the next few lemmings with builds.

However, the one level I cannot do so far is Tricky 10. Please give me some clues on this one! It's driving me mad!

 I didn't mention those levels. They were fairly difficult, but I managed to do them in no more than about six tries each.

 Clue: (in case you didn't know) a lemming can exit by falling into the exit even from a height that would normally kill him.

Aargh! Damn it, of course I knew that! I just never thought of applying it to that level........

Done now, anyway. So that's all of Fun and Tricky complete now. Thanks for the hint.........

There's a mistake in Cheapo: Fake objects don't work!

In the levels of Peter, the level Taxing 24 have a fake exit, but that works! I guess it's an error of the game.

 Cool! I've just downloaded it and tried the altered levels.

 Taxing 12 'You might as well quite now'. - The right-hand exit doesn't need to be fake, since there's no way to get to it anyway. (Please tell me if I'm wrong!)

 Taxing 23 'Teach a new trick to an old lemming' - I didn't see a fake exit here. The level seems unchanged (and still easy as hell!). :???:

 Taxing 24 'Attacked by lemmings' - Cool! Now it's just as much fun as 'Actual insanity'!

 Mayhem 4 'Having a blast' - Hmmm . . . Before, I just got the left-hand lemmings into the left-hand exit. Getting them into the right one instead will take some more thought.

 Mayhem 13 'Surrounded by fakeness' - Still very easy!

I guess I should mention that I was the one who "playtest" Essman's levels for compatibility issues.  I originally helped him get started by automating the more boring aspects of conversions (opening each level file and resave them, assign correct music to them, etc.)  I didn't plan to playtest the levels, but I enjoy them enough that I ended up going through them all.

I specifically only looked for compatability (conversion) issues, meaning solutions which either only works in the new version or only in the old version.  And actually, I really only did half the job, since the old version of Cheapo kept crashing when I exit, so I mostly avoided running that program unless absolutely necessary.

So what I ended up doing is to look for levels where after the conversion, I can see routes which I know couldn't be possible in the old version.  Mostly this just means there are routes that goes up into the "ceiling", which isn't possible because in the old version a level's maximum height is 20% lower than the new version.  This covered 2 of the levels here (you figure out which ones and how).  And of course I discovered about the fake exit problem on one of the levels where it is obvious, so that covered Taxing 23.

Mayhem 4 was contraversial.  I complained about it because I felt that only solution viable in the converted version would be too hard to execute on the old version of Cheapo, which keep in mind does not have features like singling out individual lemmings, right clicking, arrow clicking, etc.  As such, I argued that I don't believe the only viable solution in the new version was the intended solution in the old version, since it would lead to a level early in the Mayhem set whose difficulty would be quite out of place.  I pointed out a solution which is possible in the old version but impossible in the new version (before this update).  It's not exactly the solution you would expect to be an "intended solution", but it is interesting enough. plus it requires less precision, that I suggested that it could be either be intended or unintended, leaving Essman to answer (I have a feeling he doesn't even remember what the intended solution is).

He ended up making the old-version only solution also possible in the new version.  However, to make it possible in the new version, as a side effect the solution will also become a bit more obvious unfortunately.  That was his decision though.

So in summary, I hate to disappoint you but you'll probably find Mayhem 4 easier rather than harder now.  But understand that the change makes some sense from a compatibility point of view.  (And the solution that used to work before the update should still work by the way, so I'm not sure what you're talking about.)

If you believe my arguments above resulted from yet another solution which I have overlooked and am willing to divulge in e-mail, feel free to do so and I'll consider its compatibility and update Essman accordingly.

Finally, I never even bothered to check for fake exits in Mayhem 13 apparently.  I never raised any issues on that level to Essman and so he changed that level on his own.  I have to say I'm not entirely sure whether removing those fake exits is the greatest idea, since it also eliminates two areas where you would otherwise try your digging/bashing on.  But I guess ultimately there is no good way to convert this level with 100% compatability if fake exits can't be done in the current Cheapo.

I'm aware of the fact that there's a way to easily access any of the 3 exits without bothering too much with the real and fake steel pieces.  But since this works with both the old and new version I decided that from compatibility's standpoint it wasn't an issue for my concern.

----------------

And so in summary that's why the changes were made.  Again I stress that I specifically only deal with compatibility, to make the converted levels as similar to the original levels as possible.  Backroutes which work in both old and new are outside my scope.  (And on the flip side, some of the "incompatible routes" which I suggested Essman to eliminate are often trickier than the intended solution, but I focused on compatibility, and apparently Essman consented since I clearly pointed out to him the relative difficulties and he still chose to eliminate them.)  You may of course take backroute issues to Essman yourself if you want.

Yes, it might be too hard for where it is. But I found that it has an interesting solution, I'm not sure if it's the original intended solution.

Here are three of the levels so far (and screenshots of my solution):
Taxing 18 - I'm not sure if this is my original intended solution, but it is close.
Taxing 22 - I don't know what the deal is with this level, it is way too easy. I think the original intended solution was harder, but it doesn't matter since the easy solution is obvious.
Taxing 23 - I'd like to see the very easy solution that everyone seems to have found except for me. I think the screenshot is of my original intended solution. I like that solution.

I don't remember my original solution to mayhem 16, your guess is as good as mine. Here are the rest:

Mayhem 7 - Actually I don't know if I originally solved it this way, probably not. Seemed pretty easy, but still fun.
Mayhem 9 - Raise the release rate and don't dig with every dude. You surely did it this way.
Mayhem 13 (no screenshot) - Just find the fake metal blocks, and if you see three exits, only the right-most one was supposed to be real.

SPOILER ALERT

I think most people would've just make multiple builds on the left side so everyone can fall down safely, completely bypassing the right side.  Perhaps you should reduce/eliminate certain skills?


Oh, how sad.  The easy solution is to just bomb away the thin column.  Looks like you should revise that level.

Now I understand why you choose to cap the ceiling on this level when I pointed it out.

(SPOILERS)
Perhaps the original intended solution doesn't use the stopper?  I certainly didn't need it.

If that's not challenging enough, then in addition to removing the stopper, move the one-way hill to the right so the right-hand side of it touches the steel.

Oh, very nice!

Guest, as for Mayhem 4 'Having a blast' - Before the left-hand exit was made fake, I just built across to the lower block to save the right-hand lemmings, and got a climber from the right-hand set to climb and bomb the ceiling to the right, then send over another climber and block before the end of the platform. Then I zig-zagged up to the hole made in the ceiling and the crowd fell to join the blocker. Then I got one to mine near the metal wall to the left to fall to the level of the left-hand exit. I don't suppose this is the intended solution, since now that exit is unusable.

 The problem is, that solution used all the builders, so I guess I'm supposed to exit through the floor instead. This'll be tricky (please tell me if I'm on the right path!)

 Essman, I didn't know about the fake steel pieces in 'Surrounded by fakeness'. Here's what I did: 1 and 2

OK, I've done some of Taxing now........

I love levels 6, 9 and 10 in particular. I wonder if your solution to Taxing 10 was the same as mine?

Here's mine: http://www.geocities.com/zarathustra47/taxing10a.bmp. (The dip on the right is done by digging two pixels then mining -- that's to get deep enough before the other lemming arrives.)

That's really cool. The name of the level was supposed to give away the fact that there is fake metal.

That is correct, I revised the level.
The zip file with the sets has been updated so its the same URL as last time.

I was able to only use a miner with the first lemming, rather than the digger-miner combo. Just a miner is fast enough if you're the right distance from the metal block. Other than that, the solution looks the same.

Also, I'd really love a hint for Mayhem 18 'Good Luck'!

 edit: Essman, since in Cheapo you can paste graphics from the clipboard, why not paste in terrain that looks like the exit in 'Surrounded by fakeness' where you had the fake exits?

That's odd, I could've swear the left exit is still usable in my copy of the levels, I'll recheck tonight.

As you know Essman haven't gotten fake exits to work, so if the left exit in Mayhem 4 actually works as a fake exit, then we should look into it and see.

(I'm talking about Mayhem 4 by the way.)

Which part are you stuck at?

Yes of course, but even so, after a few minutes I had enough with searching for the fake steel and ended up doing something similar to Conway's solution, except I drop from the right end (after digging down some fake steel of course).  ;P

 You're right! I could have sworn the left-hand exit didn't work! But I've just tried it now and it does. So the intended solution is for the left lemmings to go into the left exit?

 As for 'Good Luck', I'm still really stuck, and it's only a fairly short level! Getting past the metal blocks involves one digger, one miner and one basher, starting from right behind the protruding block. This leaves one basher and one builder to contain the others and to later release them, or to hold them back while the first lemming builds over the fire and digs a short way down. This is my best theory, but one still dies because he turns back and burns as the digger's hole isn't deep enough.

I think Essman had no idea what the intended solution is.

In the old version, I pointed out to Essman that there is a trick (which also works in PC Lemmings) that allows you to blow away enough of the bottom steel block so you can mine down to the exit.  And I pointed out that the solution of building up through the pit would be extremely difficult to do in the old version, especially since you need to start a number of your builds as close to the wall as possible to get high enough, plus there are other lemmings milling about making it even harder to get the right lemming to build.  And in the old version you can't single out lemmings or arrow-click them.

I didn't think Essman would actually honor the trick solution in the old version and do so by removing the steel in the new version, but well he did.

Given the enhanced capabilities in the new Cheapo, I guess building out of the pit isn't as bad anymore, and so maybe it's better to go back to the previous version.  I'll have to think about this more.  Actually, it would be cool if there really is a way for the left lemmings to get to the right exit but I believe I've convinced myself that this can't be done.


Ok, you're on the right track.

(SPOILERS/HINT)
Dig more to the left.

 Thanks! I've just passed it!

First off, nice levels Essman! (Edit: Just finished the last one :) ).

Hmm, I didn't find it very hard to contain the other lemmings in Mayhem 18... (Lemmings don't die at the very edge of the fire trap).

So far the levels I found most interesting are Taxing 21 "Magic lemmings", Mayhem 2 "Is this legal?", Mayhem 19 "Get down tonight!" and Mayhem 24 "Back and forth".

Is the bottom route in Mayhem 10 "More pea soup, please" supposed to be viable?

Mayhem 30 was definitely not hard enough for its position! But I see you were going for a link between the first and last levels of the set.

That's great that you finished them, and better than I could do. I made many of those levels in 1997 and I play some of them today as if it was the first time I've ever seen them.


It's supposed to be a little forgiving.


Mayhem 2 is one of my favorites, I always wondered if anybody solved it the same was I do.


The answer to that question, and my intended solution, lies in this screenshot.


Yes, the last level is meant to refer to the first level. And it was supposed to be a fun level as a bonus for finishing all the previous levels. The very last level shouldn't be punishment, but a reward.

By the way, when I was taking screenshots for one of my many posts, I found a way to take many screenshots at the same time. I was using the PrintScreen key to copy a bitmap to the clipboard. A problem with that is that I can only copy one screen at a time. Since the clone game only runs in full screen, I'd have to quit the program in order to use that screenshot. So I couldn't take two screenshots of the same level.

But I remembered that I have Microsoft Office, which comes with a clipboard manager that collects up to 24 clipboard items automatically. I ran Word, hit Ctrl-C twice to start the clipboard manager, then was able to take up to 24 sceenshots using PrintScreen.

Perhaps there are other, free, clipboard managers that can be downloaded. But I happened to remember that Office has one.

I just alt-tab to Paint to paste instead of exiting.

Thanks. I don't want to imply that it didn't take much time or effort--some of the levels are really tough--I spent many hours on them over the past couple of days (I'm still on winter break) :)


Sorry, that was a comment directed at Conway and guest.


Sent you a message of my solution.


Ah, but it is possible to completely avoid the bowl of pea soup and only use the bottom route, with builders to spare even.


Yeah, that's a good point. It worked well in the original Lemmings (but not in ONML!  >:( ) as a good end to everything you've worked up to.

This is how I did it, with a blocker to the far left. *screenshot* Tell me if you need an explaination.

Yes, that is my solution (and what I think is the only solution).

Thanks for the tip!  I never ran into a problem with making multiple screenshots of the same level, since Alt-Tab appears to work just fine switching between Cheapo and other programs (assuming you have another program opened of course so you have something to Alt-Tab into).  But the Office clipboard manager is much more convenient of course.

Oh wow, although I had the same idea, I did it a much harder way.  I timed the first lemming that got up onto the steel block so that he explodes in mid-fall from the steel block you build up to at the beginning, exploding just before landing.  I then have the following lemming build from the left edge of the steel block so that no one will fall directly below (since the fall would be too high), and then put a blocker at the left.

No screenshots now since I'm at work, not that it matters since Conway's solution is much simpler.

I'm feeling very frustrated (in a good way) with Essman's Mayhem 27 'Press Adam's space grill'. All I need is one more builder! >:( Damn!

Is there one of the builders that you use and perhaps don't absolutely need?

This level took me a good while to complete, and I barely made it when I did. But at first I remember needing one more builder and then realized it was possible using one less...

Yeah, I've done it!

Yippie! I've just finished all the Essman cheapo levels. The last three were surprisingly easy. Ones near the end I really enjoyed were 'Prison Escape Plan' (which is arguably the most enjoyable level in your four sets), 'Opposable Lemming' (using a similar trick to my lemedit 'Don't Just Dig') and 'Best Done While Smashed'. Please tell me what the intended solution is for 'Smashed'. Is the tiny step where a lemming can float onto just a rouse? Because he can't build from it as it's so small.

Hmm, interesting, I never knew there's such a thing as a piece of terrain you can't build off from because it's too small.

In fact, I distinctly seem to remember that lemmings can generally build off from as little as one or two pixels.  After all, in the first version of Taxing 23 Essman posted, you can climb all the way up to the thin pole and build on top of it, and that pole was what, 2 pixels wide, just like this tiny ledge here?

Can anyone show whether this can't-build behavior is standard behavior you can observe in, say, PC Lemmings, or is it just Cheapo-specific?  I wonder if the fact that this ledge here is right at the bottom row of pixels in the level has anything to do with this behavior.

It's a bug in the game. I moved the two pixel piece up by one pixel and now you can build off of it. In fact, my original solution did do that. But I have no idea what the solution is, with or without building off of the two pixel thingy.
I uploaded a new copy of the sets to the same location as always (search through previous posts in this thread for the link).

I have a vague idea what the intended solution is, but there is a much easier way. ;)

Still making slow progress; but then, I have a lot of other things to do.

I've done half of Taxing; level 15 was great fun, though very easy.

Was this the intended solution to Taxing 12? I seem to be addicted to finding the hardest solution possible........

I don't believe so. Here's my solution, then bash to release the blocker holding the others and bash at the base of the slope.

 Also, if you save it as a PNG image, it will be at near-bitmap quality, but much more compressed so you don't need to compromise colour.

 Also, I don't believe the tiny block in 'Best be done when smashed' can help anyway, since there aren't enough builders.

Oh, nicely done!

About the PNG thing, yeah, I know. I would if I could.

Meanwhile -- Taxing 17 seemed to be a bit too similar to Dolly Dimple, even having pretty much exactly the same solution.......

I loved Taxing 19, though it did seem a little tough for its position, just because the solution (if I got the right solution, that is) uses a couple of clever tricks that might be difficult to think of.

Here's my solution -- part 1 and part 2.......

If you have Windows XP, you do realize that its MS Paint supports PNG files right?

And really, you are a Mac user, and I thought Macs were supposed to be the favorite for artists and desktop publishing types.  You can't be telling me that the humble MS Paint has surpassed the Mac on what's supposed to be a cross-platform graphics file format!?!?  O_O :P :D

Never mind, that was a stupid comment.  Of course, what you meant to say is that you don't have a website to host those PNG files to (same problem here in fact).  Sorry and please ignore (or better, admins please delete) the previous post.

If only you would register :P

Ok, I think I need a lesson in reading things twice.

Clearly if Ahribar can post actual screenshots in BMP, his problem is really about file format and not the inability to post pictures.  So my earlier post actually makes sense and it is my later post (above) that doesn't.

Yeah, I suppose the ability to edit posts is something I should look into, if my reading skills doesn't improve.  =8O ;P

Thank you.......

I've afraid I don't have Windows XP. (And though I prefer to be a Mac user, my Mac isn't connected to the Internet, so I have to use the PC for all websitey stuff -- and for Cheapo of course.)

Isn't there a MAC based editor that supports PNG files?

I'm sure there is, but as I said my Mac isn't connected to the Internet so it would be useless for this anyway.

Ya, I had this freaky dream yesterday. Has to do partly with Essman's level packs.

To be honest, most of it is quite inappropriate in nature to be posting here, but I distinctly remember one part where I'm sitting in fornt of my computer, in a chat room with people who play Lemmings inexplicably... We swap levels a lot (And I got this creepy new level idea from this dream. Heh.), but one of the people seemed to only make levels based off of Essman's "tremolo blooz" and "armatage shanks" levels. (Granted, the latter hasn't that many ideas to re-make it, but meh... it's my dreams. They don't make sense.) After receiving yet another set of levels with remakes of these two levels, I recorded a sound byte of myself shouting "NO MORE TREMOLO BLOOZ! NO MORE [----]ING ARMATAGE SHANKS!" into my headphones plugged into a microphone slot and uploading it to some website involving Bob Marley's head (Bear with me, here) and posted it.

Turns out that, later, someone went and made a techno song using that sound clip, which became the next "all your base" craze. And that's about all I remember. Weird.

So, ya, just thought I'd share that with you all. I'm about 90% of the way past those levels, but I can't offhand remember what levels I've not solved yet.

Weird! O_o So far, I've made two levels based on dreams, dreams where I was either designing or playing them; 'Centre of Attention' and 'A Strange Relationship', the latter is one I had recently this week and I'm currently working on perfecting the level. Oh, and I also once dreamed about a working 3D model Lemmings game, with actual robotic lemmings that walk abound and follow your commands. The level I was trying to complete was a 3D version of 'Final Impediment', from the Sega Megadrive.

The irony of this statement is, not a single one of your oblivion levels (yes, I've played all of them) actually requires the oblivion trick to solve.  [Most only requires 2-3 stoppers, some can be done with 0.]

Being the dinosaur that I am when it comes to WWW stuff, I finally discovered that Yahoo has this "Yahoo Geocities" thing.  So I finally found a solution to distributing my levels.

The two I've mentioned ["This Level Requires No Skill" and "After the Rainstorm"] can now be downloaded through this following excruciatingly awful webpage:  http://www.geocities.com/guestlevels/lemmings/

More levels to come in the near future.

(note: you need the ability to open zip files to get the levels)

Cool levels! I'm surprised how long it took for me to pass "This Level Requires No Skill". Might be possible, with a LOT of precision, to get 4/15... I was about a pixel off of 4. That's a brilliant level design for a level with no tasks...

Anyways, I managed to finally figure out a way to incorporate that trick from the dream in a fun yet ultimately fourth set worthy level. Nice. I'm quite amused by it.

I still haven't managed Guest's 'No Skill' level! I assume that I need to use the giant nuke, but at what point, and something tricky also needs to be done with the release rate. Hmmm . . . :???:

Good job Insane_Steve on my no-skill level!  B)

I've uploaded a third Cheapo level, "If Only They Could Swim...", to the site.  It's actually the very first level I ever made, way back a few years ago when LemEdit still runs on my laptop.  It's not a particularly hard level but it actually looks nice and visually interesting for a change.  I even posted the map preview.  Enjoy!

Again, the site is: http://www.geocities.com/guestlevels/lemmings/

Oh, I also made a MIDI of the rating Fun "special level" (Fun 22), based on the PC version's rendition of it.  It's still a work in progress but the notes are basically all there.  You can get the MIDI from my site too.

The swimming level isn't downloadable. :-(

Guest, there's a "backroute" in your level "This Level Requires No Skill" (who would have thought it was possible?), but of course it utilizes the replay/armageddon bug so I wouldn't consider it a legitimate solution. But it is indeed possible to get 14/15 abusing this bug. I'll go and try to beat it legitimately now, I have an idea of what you need to do...

Edit: Yes! Beat it. Brilliant level design!

Since I don't have a mouse compatible with LemEdit, I've decided to start working on some Cheapo levels.

Here's my first level, Dual Action Lemmings. It's probably one of my best levels so far. Thanks to Conway for helping to find numerous backroutes! Good luck :)

(Edit: Backroute mentioned below fixed.)

*backroute warning deleted*

Oh! What a gorgeous level!!!

But can anyone pass it? I found many backroutes which are now fixed, but the true solution seems very obscure! O_o

I got damn close just now...... 77 out of 80 saved............

I'd like to know how! I can save half, that's it! Never mind, I'll figure it out . . .

 edit: I can do 79 out of 80, and based on what Shvegait had told me, it would be another backroute if I could save 80 this way.

Done! And I'm fairly sure it's the right solution. I'll PM Shvegait to check.

Doh!  Apparently geocities URLs are case sensitive.

I've fixed the filename and it should now be downloadable.  Thanks for pointing out the problem!

Yeah, I passed it too. But I'm fairly sure it's another backroute from what Shvegait has told me about the intended solution. Please tell me your solution by PM and I'll send you mine.

 edit: That was in response to Ahribar's post.

Neither solution is my intended solution! Give me a little, I have to think about how to fix these backroutes.

It is pretty interesting how many backroutes have been found to this already and how diverse they are. Some of these ways I would have never considered.

Thanks for playing :)

Perhaps I'll e-mail you my 2 solutions, in case they're different from Conway's, Ahribar's or yours.

Yes, please do! My guess is that one of the two solutions will be similar to either Ahribar's, Conway's, or mine, and the other will be something totally different.

I have managed to fix the backroutes, but I am a little reluctant to post this updated version. I'm afraid that the change might make the "real" solution significantly more obvious. I'll try to find another way to make Ahribar's solution not work, but if I can't, I will just update the level with the fix I have in mind. Also, I'll see what guest has come up with before updating it.


Edit: Level updated, should prevent basically all backroutes. In case anyone was wondering, guest's solutions were both different from all the others.

Here's that level I came up with in that weird dream.

It's rather unorthadox to be posting levels from future sets on the boards, but I want to see if there's backroutes. I mean, this one has a neat trick, if it isn't backroutable.

Yes, I know the terrain design is a bit odd.

EDIT: You also need Steaver's FireLemmus style to play it.

Guest managed to find yet another backroute so I updated Dual Action Lemmings yet again (wider gap in the center).

And another (taller columns in the center area now).

I've solved Attack of the Subconscious.

I'm sure it is the intended solution, and that there is one backroute, but only one. The backroute involves the fast-forward trick to get the lemmings in in time; that should be the only hint Steve needs to find and remove it.

Yeah, I found that backroute also and sent a message to Insane_Steve. I was wondering about the time limit, though, 2:09 is a strange number for the backroute to barely work with the FF trick, but I haven't found the intended solution yet so I don't know how much time that needs...

Edit: And yep, that's right, guest found yet another backroute to my level. Same URL for the update.

Slight hint: the intended route is very similar to the backroute. VERY similar.

Hmm, I've managed to save 69/70 without using fast forward... I'll have to think about it some more.

Ok, got it. :)

The solution shouldn't require Fast Forward. You should have about 2 or 3 seconds left when you are done.

Although, I did find out about a neat back-route -- should be fixable by chopping the time limit to 2:08. The intended solution does not involve digging on the far right with the first lemming on the left. Both solutions I received mentioned this idea.

If you've found any different-looking solutions, send them over. Thanks.

As for odd time limits, almost all of my levels use uneven time limits. Just a habit I have.

Oh, how weird. That wasn't the intended solution after all, then..... but I really cannot see how another solution is possible. Hmm...........

I'm also completely stuck on the revised Dual Action Lemmings and guest's If Only They Could Swim. Any kind persons out there want to give even a small hint for either?

Insane_Steve, the backroute involving digging with the first lemming from the left lets you save all of the lemmings with 4 seconds to spare with a careful change in the release rate, so lowering the time limit will not be enough by itself.

Especially as, for a backroute elimination to be completely satisfactory, it ought to fail even when the fast-forward trick is used. I always try to make sure there are no fast-forward backroutes on my level, though I am aware of one (on Surely You're Joking) that I don't think it will be possible to get rid of.

The intended solution is quite clever (but difficult to find, I think), although easy to pull off once you know how. Still, I don't think it'll be that hard to remove the digger trick from the level. I'm thinking either a steel floor or (Even more fun) flipping the left entrance so the lemmings go out to the left. I'll come up with something and probably re-post the level.

Still, thanks for pointing out that digger back-route to me. That's why I posted it early.

I can e-mail you hints to my level if you tell me (here or in e-mail) which part you're stuck on (or if you couldn't start at all).

I'm still working out Dual Action Lemmings myself.  I have managed to produce tons of backroutes, even some that I thought must be the intended solution, but so far no luck.

I'm glad that Attack of the Subconscious has been changed.  I found the fast-forward backroute fairly easily, but I couldn't even get some of the other routes you guys have mentioned to work.  At least now I know I shouldn't bother trying since they aren't intended.

Oh, I didn't even know you could do that to get the lemmings to go out facing left.

Do they fall up if you flip the entrance upside-down?  O_O

Yep! :D

Updated my level once again for another backroute that guest found. This is the last time! Perhaps this is wishful thinking, but it's getting really hard to picture backroutes at this point.

All I did was flip that left exit.

The URL is the same as last time. The backroute (and its varients) is removed, but the correct solution works exactly as usual.

Actually, I think you better use the steel-block fix instead, because I managed to backroute your level with another fast-forward solution.  Maybe it's even the one you said might be fixable via 2:08.

I also think I finally had an idea what the intended solution is...stay tuned.

Yes!  I've got it, the intended solution, exactly as steve described (2-3 seconds left, no digging by the left lemmings).

It turned out to be merely a combination of two solutions I tried that didn't work.  I apparently already have the key move since yesterday.

That is some interesting dream you had Steve, to have observed something so, in a way, subtle.

I took a second look at my level "If Only They Could Swim...", and it suddenly occurred to me there is something in that level that might be slightly misleading.

Just in case it is actually misleading to many, and just so people wouldn't then cry foul over it, I decided to post a clarification on the [u]site[/u] where you can download the level.  However, I much prefer you don't read the clarification.

Alright, after considerable testing and self-debate, I finally decided to make a tiny change to my level "If Only They Could Swim...".  The change is practically unnoticeable, does not change the intended solution, and probably wouldn't affect anything anyone has tried so far.  Still, please redownload the level from the site.

In 'If Only they could Fly', surely only the third exit can be used!? In that case, I can only save 79. Your 'clarification' was that (spoiler warning!) _{'The water at the small pond near the right exit is shallow.'} That doesn't really help much. I knew that, and I gather I have to dig and bash under the small pond. Then I can get up to the exit with just one builder. And the rest of the builders are to get across the big pool, one builder on each side. I guess I've got something wrong. I have a feeling the contraption to the right of the accessible exit has something to do with it, but if I bash into it they land beside the exit and die from the fall. Any hints?

Out of curiosity, which lemming dies, and how?

One of the two builders going across the large pool.

I had the same problem. Two builders are needed to cross the large pool, since if you build from just one side they splat at the other. But if you do it the most straightforward way -- the only way I've yet been able to work out -- the right-hand builder starts before the left, and that means you have to let him drown after his fourth bridge while the left one builds his fifth.

(I should add that I got this far without reading the clarification, but, having read it, it's obvious that going under that exit is indeed intended. Guest confirmed in an e-mail that the submerged exits are meant to be unreachable.)

Yes, that's where I'm stuck as well. Are you still stuck, Ahribar, or did you solve it?

Still stuck, though, since I'm at work now, I haven't had much chance to solve it.

By the way, did you get anywhere with Twenty-Second Teaser?

I know this was directed at Conway, but I just beat Twenty Second Teaser last night. I had been trying it here and there since Adam sent me Cheapo + whatever levels he had lying around a couple months ago. But you know, I don't even know if my solution is reproduceable. I just tried putting a bunch of random stuff together and eventually it worked. Nice level for something so short!

For guest's "If Only They Could Swim...", I don't know if I'm authorized to give hints, but think of what would theoretically need to happen in order to save them all, look at what you have available, and make it happen.

Well it wasn't meant to be a hint.  I was just worried, due to comments from one of the player's attempt, that it was "counterintuitive" you can take a path under the small pond.  The thing is I can't actually restrict the body of water to be just where it is visible, the actual water object extends a little below and to the right.

It's conceivable, especially given that the water object in the default styles by Essman is much larger, that someone might incorrectly think the water in the small pond extends all the way to the bottom of the level, just like every other body of water in that level are.

It's certainly something anyone can easily check, but just in case this leads someone to say the level is "cheap" I decided to clarify that part to cover my a__, so to speak.  In retrospect I probably overreacted.  :-[  I might remove the clarification from the site tonight.

I'm so sorry........ in that case it sounds like you have an out-of-date copy of the level.

The Teaser now has no floater and no digger, and I've written a sequel, Surely You're Joking Mr Lemming, with all the skills but in which 100% is required.

Good luck.........

I tried the two twenty-second levels, each about ten times, with no success. I haven't tried since. I might do later when I've passed all the other ones I'm stuck on!

Where can I get your levels, Ahribar?

No floater!  X_X
Haha, seriously though, I did use the digger, but I think I might be able to do it without it... hmm...

Ok, a few people have passed the level I put up, and I made all required revisions. Thank you all for testing it.

I came up with a crazy back-route to the original Twenty-Second Teaser level, but it used the digger. I do know the real solution... for a couple reasons, actually. I've yet to figure out the harder version.

For the Teaser, you can just modify it yourself to remove the digger (or to require 100%, for the sequel). The floater was removed to give the skills a nice 0-1-1-2-1-1-0 pattern; it isn't needed on either version.

I've also got a set of levels at http://www.geocities.com/zarathustra47/Hard.ZIP -- I have changed which levels are included a large number of times, but you should find that the ten levels it includes at the moment are all in working order. Enjoy!

- - -

Steve: actually, the solution to Surely You're Joking is almost identical to your backroute on the Teaser. The digger goes down eight pixels instead of seven..........

Ohh, I had a version of that pack from before, didn't realize Ahribar = Michael S. Repton. Those are good levels, I'll have to try them some more. But I guess this has been updated since then... Thanks!

Yes, it's been updated a lot. Insane Steve found a good few backroutes, and guest found a good many more. All have been removed in the versions linked to above.

Yeah, good levels Ripton! I passed the first two, but the rest will take some thought and practice.

 In case anyone was wondering when I'd make a Cheapo recreation of 'Can't find any Gaps', <here it is!> And with a much better title! Thanks to Jaunjo (Lemming 20) for the super graphics!

 edit: Please tell me how you pass it or the Lemedit version in case there's a backroute!

I've gone through my 3 LemEdit packs and converted whatever levels were worth converting, relatively easy to convert (i.e. no long levels where the solution depends on specific aspects of the terrain) and possible to convert without altering the solution (There were about 5 or 6 more levels I would have liked to convert, but alas, they use CustLemm-only tricks). I narrowed it down to 10 levels, with one being a repeat. All of the levels use the Lemmus styles. Here it is. Enjoy, and let me know how things go...

(Edit: Made a very small fix to one level. Edit2: Another small change to another level.)

Thanks to Shvegait for finding a backroute to the 'This Little Corner of the Universe', the Cheapo version of 'Can't find any Gaps', even though the backroute looks harder than the intended solution! Same url for update.

Nice levels, Shvegait and Conway! Haven't really had the time to give them a proper go, but I've passed the first level of Shvegait's set. Which is not saying a lot.

Conway, can you send me any solutions to my levels that you find -- for the usual reason, of course?

Do you mean my solution to every level, or just specific ones?

Well, you said you'd only done two, so why not start with those two?  B)

Fixed a couple of backroutes in my LemEdit remake pack. Thanks to Conway for finding them. Same url.

I just made a level which, if the route I want is possible, and the obvious back-routes cannot work, is simple-looking, yet would probably be hard enough to be one of the last 5 or 6 levels in any of my packs! If you want me to upload it, I will do so, to see if the back-routes can actually be done.

Double post. Sorry.

Here it is.

The intended solution DOES work. Now... back-routes... those might be a HUGE problem. The terrain layout of the level makes back-routes very hard to fix; I'm hoping the time limit makes all conceivable solutions except the right one impossible.

You need Juanjo's "Old Temple" style to play this level.

P.S.: Yes, the original title was "Go! Go! Climb!" -- I thought of a better name.

P.P.S.: The level mentioned in the introduction is the last level of set #2. Its solution will NOT help you with this one.

P.P.P.S.: Almost forgot. The level is called "The Mon0lith" -- so you aren't looking aimlessly for it in the levels list.

Let's see...I passed the level on my third try, saved 35 out of 40, has about 45 seconds left, and has 1 climber, 2 floaters, 1 bomber, and 5 bashers left.  There exist a possible (but unconfirmed) variation that could possibly save 2 more by trading another basher for the digger.

Sorry to disappoint, but that sounds like a backroute to me......(check your e-mail).  Fun level nonetheless.  (And tell Juanjo the style looks awesome.)

Wild guess:  did you mean to require saving 38 out of 40 rather than 28?

And indeed, I succeeded in saving 38 out of 40, via a conceptually straightforward solution with a wacky twist.  (Without the wacky twist I believe you'll run out of time, although not by much.  No fast forward involved.)

I don't know if this solution is what Steve intended.  And I won't tell what the solution is:  if it's what Steve intended then I don't need to say it, and if it isn't then Steve should figure it out himself.  Hey, at least it's not a boring solution, thanks to the wacky twist anyway.  

(I guess I'm assuming there's only 1 solution can do 38 out of 40...seems likely but I guess you never know.)

Actually, thinking about it, maybe you don't even really need the wacky twist.  Something more ordinary could work as well.  The whole issue is just getting 38 out in time.

My first 38 out of 40 with the wacky twist has about 23 seconds left on the clock.  The most straightforward variant, which runs out of time, is short by about 3 seconds I think.  The new thinking is that without the wacky twist there is still another, far more ordinary replacement you can use that might be able to achieve something in between time-wise.  Maybe I'll check tomorrow.

Yep, I've just reworked saving 38 out of 40 and come up with a very straightforward solution for it, taking care of the time issue simply by doing certain things slightly differently than before.  And I even have slightly more skills left.  13 seconds left on the clock.  

So 38 out of 40 is now officially also in the "ordinary solution" category.  But it still makes for a fun level nonetheless.

I've just passed it with 35 remaining as well, though I assume you must need to save 38 and that the 28 was a typo...

Yes, there's a HUGE back-route I need to fix. I might re-look the original level to see if I can pass it with 38/40.

Watch this space. I have a couple ideas to fix it... But ya, I think I needed to check the level design a lot better next time. I was just really glad that my intended solution worked.

The correct save percent is "28 of 40" -- not 38. Yes, I'll send over a not messed up version soon. Thanks for the testing.

Since a 38/40 solution is possible, I'd assume that you can do it with two blockers instead of three. And my solution cannot be done with 13 seconds left. I'm completely out of ideas to fix this... I might just have to scrap the level and re-design it with the same idea for the trick, but in a way that can't be done in an alternative, simpler route.

Better yet, if I can find the 38/40 solution, I might just raise it to that and throw it in the sets somewhere, making a different level for my intended trick.

EDIT: Ok, question to anyone who saved something like 35 or 38 or something: did ANY of your solutions use fewer than 5 builders? I might be able to make a revision to the level that takes a blocker and a builder out yet still maintains the original solution, although it'd raise the time limit to a point where any of the more mundane routes work also.

Well so far I've used up all builders, so it might work to remove a builder and a blocker but I'd need to check and see.

My solution used up all the builders, as well.

Ok, I've made a revised version, with one fewer builder, one fewer blocker, no bombers, 2 additional bashers, and a minor-looking yet very important terrain addition. I played the level, and my solution does work. I reduced the time limit to 2:15, because the change doesn't affect the time to solve it nearly as much as I thought.

The URL is the same. Just re-download it from the link I posted. If you back-route (Or solve) this version, tell me. Thank you.

I'm reasonably sure the "weird twist" is not part of my solution, because you shouldn't be able to save many more than 28/40.

Doh!  I just got 38/40 in your old version of the level without using the 3rd blocker, without the bomber, and only uses 4 builders (and still 13 seconds left).  But I guess I have to redo it in your revise level and see.......

OK, I solved If Only They Could Swim. Or at least, I didn't quite, because you have to be annoyingly precise to stretch the bridge as far as possible with every builder, and I couldn't be bothered this late in the evening. But I know what the solution is.

Nice level.

Phew!  My 4-builder 38/40 solution survives in your new version.

I'm now down to 5 seconds though, but I think if I had simply bash away the two "spikes" you added right at the very beginning I could probably bring the time back to 8 seconds or so.

The 4-builder 38/40 solution is somewhat trickier than the 5-builder in the old version of course, but it mostly evolved from the 5-builder 38/40 version.

Just so I don't leave you too disappointed, I believe, at a quick glance, you can stop at least my current 38/40 solution if you move the right spike to be about halfway between where it is now and the mon0lith.  I can't guarantee there isn't a brand new 38/40 of course, but you can be sure to hear about it if I found one.

No.  That's why I did not rate that level with a P on my website.  And more importantly, that's precisely why I eventually decided to make the nearly imperceptable change I mentioned somewhere on this thread.

Believe me, I've gone through the same annoyance you did in order to test my change.  So I can tell you that (spoilers) _{although it might not look like it, you won't be able to get across the great lake with only 9 builders}.  You can however do this level without stretching any bridges, which is also why I have to keep the change very imperceptible.

Regarding the spoiler above, obviously it's not a true statement as far as a literal reading goes, but you know what I mean:  doing it means you won't get 80/80 as required.

And I'm sure some of you are aware of that replay glitch where you can get you builder to build in thin air, so to speak.  Such solutions obviously doesn't count.  In any case, it won't help you significantly, you'll just be as frustrated.

Yeah, Ahribar, how can you know for sure that you have found the solution if you haven't been able to get it to work? Oftentimes fake routes will seem like the real solution but you will be off by one pixel or some such minor difference and the route is just there into making you think you've found the solution. I know that sometimes I throw in fake routes that barely don't work in order to frustrate people.  :P

(Or, yeah, ones that let you save one less than you need are fun too...)

Edit: I don't mean to imply all fake routes are intentional, a lot just happen from backroute fixing of course.

Move the right spike? Can't see what difference that'd make... but the right spike can be moved and my solution will still work. The left one cannot.

First, I'd need to figure out how to pull off a 38/40 with the reduced tasks. Does it involve any collide-stopping? (My solution does not, but it'd be helpful to know.)

No it does not.

Here's also a further, somewhat substantial hint to the reduced-task 38/40.  Copy the gibberish below and change the font to something normal (right now it's in Wingdings) to read.

My reduced-task 38/40 leaves "THE MON0LITH" on the mon0lith unscathed...barely.

And I actually can't say for sure whether moving the right spike closer to the mon0lith will definitely prevent what I'm currently doing, but at least it'll make things a little harder I think.

After reading the Wingdings message (I'm a bit more concerned with getting this level so only the intended solution works than solving for a back-route without hints right now), it seems that your 38/40 trick is quite a bit different than my intended solution. At least, with where you mine.

I've uploaded the version with a closer spike. Same link as before. Try your route on it now. If it still works, maybe I can come up with something that'll allow my route to be solved in 2:00 or something.

You said you can save 38 with 8 seconds left -- how long does it take to save 28 of them?

Oh, no doubt about that.  The solution makes do with less than half the number of bashers you provided.


For now, it seems to have put a stop to 38/40.


Probably around the same amount of time.

Honestly, some people..........   ;)

Could you not tell that I posted that to provoke guest into giving the hint? I didn't want to keep trying such a high-precision route for ages until I finally either succeeded or realised it was impossible.

So......... you have to use all the builders to get over the lake. Well, I can get the right-hand lemmings in with no builders, but I cannot see how to turn one of them round to work on the bridge, given that he has to get there later than the builder from the left. Hell, this is hard.............

Oh, yes, if anyone else manages to find a solution that seems like the one I intended for that level, please tell me. Remember, you won't save more than 30 or 31 (tops), maybe 32 -- and you should use most (if not all) of your bashers.

Conway found backroutes to half of the levels of my LemEdit remake set and a couple of other minor issues caused by the transition, so here's an update. Let me know if anyone finds any other backroutes.

Are you sure it's an update? All the levels seem the same, and the backroutes to 3, 4 and 5 still work. I haven't tried 7, but it looks exactly the same. Are you sure it's the updated version?

Oops, I put it in the wrong folder on that server. Fixed now.

Is it? :???:

I was able to download the update correctly from that link, so it should be fixed...

Yeah it is, I don't know what happend at first.

Fixed a backroute in level 3 of my LemEdit Remake set and fixed a couple of other minor issues with a couple levels. Hopefully this will be the final version. Let me know if anyone manages to pass it.

Here's the update.

I'm not able to complete these levels from Essman packs:

Mayhem 19: Get down tonight!
Mayhem 24: Back and forth

Someone can told me how to solve these levels? They look impossible!

Okay, if you don't want to know the whole solution, I'll just give you hints. At the bottom of the post will be the solutions (the ones I used, at least).

 Mayhem 19 - Get Down Tonight

 You don't need to contain the crowd.

 Mayhem 24 - Back and Forth

 You need to go under the one-way wall.

 Both levels can be done in under one minute, and are both much simpler than they look.

 Okay, now the SOLUTIONS:

 Mayhem 19 - Get Down Tonight

 Bash through the wall to the right. Make the lead lemming float at the latest possible moment and build as soon as he lands. Also make the lemming behind him float. Then make the first lemming to pass the builder block. The bridge will catch the rest of the lemmings and the blocker will turn the builder. If you want to get them in in less that one minute, take the release rate to 99.

 Mayhem 24 - Back and Forth

 Make lem2 bash to delay him, and lem1 build over the gap. Make one of the last lemmings to fall from the bridge before it hits the wall dig in the corner and bash when he's under the one-way wall. If it's done right, he should be alone or have one partner. Make him/them build over to the exit. You will probably need two builders even if he's alone. Finally dig to release the others.

 Hope that helps!

Well... I just readed the hints, then I completed the levels by myself without reading the solutions. Now, I just read the solutions and it was the same that I did! :D

Thanks for help anyway! B)

I've pretty much given up playing those levels, since there are so many and I have so much else to do, but if anyone has hints for Taxing 21.......?

Well, there are two ways you can go about solving the level, an intended way and an unintended way.

The unintended way is basically just applying various delay tactics to lemmings 2-5 using the skillls you're given that doesn't go towards building to the exit, and stretching the build towards the exit to minimize time.

The intended way:

(hint)

Look at the pillar with all those cracks.  There are 2 cracks on the right side.  To trap the crowd you want them to go onto the upper crack since they can't proceed further left on that crack.  And remember you have all those climbers and floaters for diversionary purposes.

(solution: copy gibberish below and change the font)

Let lemmings 3-5 be athletes.  After the 1st and 2nd lemming turned around at the right pillar and approach the cracked pillar, have the 1st start building towards the cracked pillar when he's closed enough.  You want the build to go above the lower crack so that the crowd will be led to the upper crack instead and be trapped.  The 2nd lemming will head past the 1st while the building is still in progress, and so will follow the lower crack past the cracked pillar, and will build 3 times to reach the exit.  Release the crowd by mining from the upper crack when ready.

It just occurred to me that a very handy way to read my Wingding-ed text is just to hit the "quote" link as if to reply to the message, then read the quoted message placed into the "Message" textbox in "post Reply".  B)

Oh, so I beat that level the unintended way after all? I figured it was intended because it just barely works!

Hints guy to the rescue . . . ! B)

 Anyway, yeah. Only the left-hand exit is accessible. Oh, and notice the groves in the pillar in the under the trap door?

 This is what I did:

 Lem1 mine where he lands. Lems 2-4 will walk past him, but lem5 will turn. Make lems 1-4 athletes. Then make lem5 build to the exit to the left.

Yeah, I used Conway's solution exactly.

ok, solved it..... looked at guest's solution afterwards, turned out to be the same as mine except i'd reversed the roles of lemmings 1 and 2.

i had noticed the cracks in the pillar before..... the reason it took so long was that, for some reason, i'm very bad at thinking of solutions that go outside the main playing area. insane steve's "The First of Many", for instance, took me ages....... and on this one it just never occurred to me to climb up that pillar. shameful, i know. thanks for the help, guys.

EDIT: ok, what's up with level 22? i got 100% really easily but the level requires less. backroute?

I've left your level (and Cheapo in general) aside for about a week.  But now that I took another stab at it I just realized that the closer right spike isn't quite enough, because it's possible to arrange for it to be bashed almost completely away from its left side.  So in addition, I think you need to make the spike completely straight, instead of the way it is right now where the left side of the right spike is only steeply sloped.

I have an idea as to your route -- I'm reasonably sure adding arrows so that the left spike can only be bashed to the right, and the right spike only to the left may work out for a solution. Thanks once again.

I took a stab at working out a completely different solution to the mon0lith than what I have been doing so far.

This resulted in a solution that, on my particular run, saved 31 out of 40.  The maximum possible is 35 out of 40 but might or might not be doable depending on time.  On my 31/40 run, 31 is achieved at the moment when the clock just changed from 3 to 2 seconds.

This is probably not the intended solution because:

1) I still have 2 bashers left.
2) It makes use of what Steve calls "collision timing".
3) Moving the right spike further left will probably interfere with the solution (assuming also the change to make the right spike bash-to-the-left-only).

In this solution what remains of "THE MON0LITH" is "T MON0LI".

It may be possible to beat the level with maybe one or two bashers left using my idea, although there is no collision timing required. My solution also demolishes almost all of the text.

As it stands, though, my solution is faster than your solution. Do you think you can beat it with maybe 8-10 seconds left in this manner?

Well, I made some adaptation to my collision-timing solution.  Boy, will you be pissed:

1) I have arranged things so that I can now just dig away the right pillar.

2) I am able to save 34/40 with 11 seconds left.

3) I have 4 bashers left.

That being said, the adaptation introduces more timing (in addition to the collision-timing already used) to the solution, so my unintended solution is probably harder to execute than whatever your intended solution is.

You can prevent this solution by moving the left pillar more to the right, but unfortunately for you, you said your intended solution requires it to be where it is now.

My intended solution really requires little or no timing... I'll just tell you it in an E-mail [Although I will leave a warning or something of the like if you don't wish to see it]. If it really is that hard to execute your newest route, I may just leave it in.

It just occurred to me if you really want to, you might be able to prevent my solution by introducing a second pillar to the right.

I'm probably going to refrain from looking at your solution at this point.  I'm quite intrigued that it doesn't require timing and yet needs to use all those bashers.  Especially odd is how one would stop the bashers from bashing all the way through without wasting builders, and if that doesn't matter, how to steer the crowd up to the top.

I already sent it. Just ignore the E-mail for now.

The big trick is, indeed, how you steer the group up to the top of the structure. You need, if my math is right, at least 8 of the bashers, but more likely 10. A second pillar ruins the symmetry, but I can fix that. I'll see what else I can think of. I'm still working on other levels -- I want to have these sets out by March-ish.

Alright, what the hell.  I'll e-mail you my solution so you can have a better idea of what to do with it.

Incidentally, every time I announce a solution to someone's level here, I almost always make screenshots of the solution beforehand.  So if you are curious about some of the earlier solutions that are currently obsolete, I can e-mail you those too.

Your current solution actually uses a lot of the elements from my intended solution, in slightly different manners.

So... would a small steel block on the top left of the structure solve anything? I'm more worried that that would create even more backroutes. Thin layer of left-facing arrows on the top?

That's a possibility although I have to try it out to see.  I guess it basically boils down to whether the proposed change would prevent the first collision timing from happening.

From looking at one of my screenshots for the earlier collision-timing solution (ie. not the one I e-mailed you), seems like it's possible to have 2 columns of pixels left on the right end of the top leg of mining, so you'd probably need your steel/one-way wall to be 2 pixels wide at least.

As for introducing new backroutes, if you keep the addition small in area it should probably be safe, but you never know.

I was thinking more a 4-pixel thick layer of left arrows across the entire top of the structure. Forcing the player to mine to the left if he wants to start from the top.

That works even better, and I certainly don't have any ideas now how I could use the addition to my advantage for backroute purposes.

Yippie! I completed all levels of the first Cheapo Copycat! B)

Cool, well done! Which level is your favourite? Mine is Mayhem 20 - 'Prison Escape Plan'.

I think I've got to the point where the levels are too hard for me........ hints for Taxing 23 please?

And more importantly, hints for how I can get better at solving levels, because I'm obviously absolutely crap compared to you lot?

Taxing 23 is probably one of Essman's harder levels, especially now that he's fixed the backroutes.

But it should be well within your grasp...after all, you made a level yourself that uses a similar trick.

Oh dear....... you were right............

Still, I don't think I'd have got it at all without that hint. Thanks!

Wait, where do you get the updated versions of these packs? Taxing 23 was VERY easy to me... and I'm quite certain it is a back-route.

Just download it from the same place you got the set from before, namely [u]here[/u].

The updates occurred some weeks ago when Conway starts critiqueing the levels.  There were at least 2 or 3 levels I remember being corrected.  And you definitely want Taxing 23 corrected.

Guess what everybody?! I've now got 21 Cheapo levels for my LemEdit Remake set. I'm planning to release it when I have 30. I've done most of the good ones that can be done in Cheapo from my LemEdit packs. Any suggestions for ones I might have missed?

Ok, check your e-mail for the latest backroute.  It has nothing to do w/ your proposed change above.  It has no collision timing involved, and in fact it resembles far more one of my earlier backroutes than those recent collision-timing solutions.

I don't know why I've overlooked it for so long, probably because it didn't seem like it would actually work out but hey it does.

This one actually saves exactly 28/40 and has more than half a minute left.

Don't think though that just because it's 28/40 you can eliminate it by increasing the requirements.  It's difficult to say for sure, but I do have a few spare bashers left, and so it's conceivable that they can be used to help squeeze in 1 or 2 more lemmings.  Of course it'd make things trickier I suppose.

Just occurred to me that a simple way to eliminate my latest backroute is to flip the left entrance, assuming that it doesn't affect your intended solution.

A small announcement; I don't know if this is the right topic for it, but never mind.

I'm going to be very busy for a while getting applications for my PhD sorted out, and I won't be touching Cheapo for that time. On about page 4 of this topic I promised to have my Quirky set done by the end of February. It won't be.

I hope that when my exile ends there are some more interesting levels from you lot for me to look at. I look forward to seeing them!

Ooh, good luck on your PhD!  So I guess we won't be seeing you until, what, summer 2008?  2010?  or maybe 2015?   :D :P

He'll still be on the site, just not as able to give so much attention to Lemmings. Isn't that right, Ahribar?

Right; and it may take years to get a PhD, but I hope to God it doesn't take me until 2015 to apply for one! So you should be seeing me again round about April if all goes well.

LOL, I know I'm just joking around.  And I'm sure when you're doing your PhD there'll be plenty of spare time waiting for lab results or what-not to go back to level designing.  Anyway, good luck, and remember nothing beats a good recommendation/reference from a Prof. when it comes to PhD apps (or so I'm told).

Yeah, good luck Ahribar.

 By the way, LemEdit remake download! B) Please tell me if you have any questions, or if you think you've discovered a bacroute, or if you pass a level and save a lot more than necessary, or with a ridiculous amount of time or skills left.

w00t!

So far I've passed the first nine levels. I'm stuck on "A real breakthrough" probably because I used a backroute to your BOP! level :???: I will have to think about it some more.

Why did you change the name of "Don't want to give too much away" to "Over or Under"... but you didn't change the name of "The desert planes of Lemmingland" even though it looks nothing like a desert!? And did you mean "planes" or "plains"? Anyway, the new versions are very good. I found the new "Mining upwards?" to be especially frustrating, but that was mostly because I made stupid mistakes and there is really no room for error.

Also, "Another very short level" is a funny title without the original "A very short level"... I'm wondering if I used a backroute or not (didn't use the miners). I definitely used a backroute in your LemEdit version (simply build up the right side), but it's not possible in the Cheapo version.

"Honeycomb" was pretty fun, hadn't really tried the LemEdit version so I can't compare. "Out of the fryingpan. . ." really requires perfect timing now. Took me a while to find the solution even though I had beaten the original! The others seemed to be as usual.

I might skip "Breakthrough" for now and play some others. Nice levels!



I still haven't converted "A stitch in time", but I'll try to do that soon and upload another update to my remake pack soon enough (I've removed that one-pixel opportunity in "Take the stairs" and fixed a couple other backroutes, I think). I've been jotting down a lot of tricks that I've thought of (usually things I do by accident when playing through levels), so maybe I'll get to making new levels again.

How did you pass the LedEdit version of 'BOP'? It's not exactly the same in the Cheapo version; different tricks are used, but only the layout is similar.

Oh, for LemEdit BOP!, I just made the first few lemmings bombers, and then clustered the rest with two blockers, then freed them.

Question about "The Great Wall": Of course it's blatantly obvious what needs to be done and basically how to do it, but little timing issues seem to always rise up. Any hints? Or is it all luck..?

Yeah, that's the intended solution for 'BOP', but it's a little different in the Cheapo version.

 What timing problems are there in 'The Great Wall'? I did it (and I've just done it again to make sure) with about 45 seconds to spare. The real problem I had was the chance that I'll get a tight group falling with a basher, or a basher releasing a blocker so he's able to walk without falling to the basher's tunnel. If these are the timing issues you mean, yeah, it's all down to chance. It took me about ten tries too!

Conway, this is a plea for you to change or remove "The Great Wall" from your LemEdit Remake set.  >:(

Of course I'm doing something wrong, but there seems to be no logical way of correcting that wrong thing (whatever it is, I can't say for certain). Blockers and bashers being off by one or two pixels will completely change the outcome of a solution. (Yes, I have tried messing with the release rate, and different trap situations, and they help to a small extent, but do not solve the problem.)

One of these must be the goal of your level, otherwise I don't see the point:

1) To see how well players deeply understand the core mechanics of the game (i.e. judging long bashing distances and determining exactly where the final bash will end up, or determining exactly how a group of 20 lemmings will walk between a blocker in a specific position and a wall that is being bashed)

2) To frustrate players to no end as they find that what they know must be the solution does not work, time after time, even though there is no logical way to modify the solution so that it does work more often than not (or even, less often than not, but more often than once in a thousand tries!)

3) To measure players' luck tolerance threshold.

If one of these is not your goal, then one or more of the following changes should be acceptable (in order of my personal preference. I am sort of joking about d, and f should actually fall after c in the list, but I wanted to put it last):

a) Lowering the number of lemmings in the level, perhaps to 10. To eliminate luck altogether, lower this to 3.

b) Widening the level. I've found that the level gets easier rather than harder as you progress (although I've still managed to lose when I thought I was finally going to obtain victory), due to the longer distances the lemmings must travel. If the level were to start out wide, there would be fewer collision conflicts.

c) Make the level much shorter, like the LemEdit version (which was, dare I say, more tolerable!). The later stages of the level are absolutely nothing new when you get there, so why bother making a big level out of this? If anything, it makes it harder to see where you go wrong, since the reason you lose when freeing the 7th blocker could have been caused by a basher at the wrong pixel when freeing the 4th blocker, or something minor like that.

d) Somehow make the places where you have to bash and block (and I'm talking pixels here) more clear. I don't know how you'd do this without making the level stupid, but right now it is really really difficult to see how and why you went wrong when you lose.

e) Changing the level to give players more control over the lemmings, while still maintaining the general concept. Of course this would require more work than the previous suggestions.

f) Remove the level and replace it with a puzzle!  B)


If you oppose suggestions a,b, or c on the grounds that they make the level too easy, then you admit that the level's difficulty comes out of chance and luck alone (unless #1,2, and/or 3 are part of your motivation for this level, of course), and is therefore no better than "All or nothing"! (In fact, since "All or nothing" technically does not require luck, this is perhaps worse.)



You could argue that my "Floating to safety" level has a high luck factor, and this may or may not be true, but there is a definite pattern that will give you decent enough results to pass the level with a few tries, plus the level is short and one mistake does not necessarily cost you the whole level! (It is possible to save more than the required amount.)


Sorry, I don't mean to sound hostile, so don't take offense if I did, but this level bothers me in so many ways that I felt the need for this long post. But I'm really not mad  :D

Wow, I can see you've put some effort in your objection to this level! I agree with you partly, but I'm not entirely sure what you're having trouble with. There are two traps in this level that I can see; getting two or more lemmings bunched together where you need to make a blocker (straight after a basher releases a blocker and falls to the step below), or the annoying event of a basher releasing a blocker but not making him fall. The latter occurs very rarely, about one in ten times in my experience, and grouping them like you said can greatly reduce the chance of a group or a lemming falling with the blocker.

 HINTS FOLLOW

 If you block first (obviously), then bash through the first section, then turn the release rate up to 99 so they all gather between the blocker to the left and the wall to the right, and then bash right, the lemmings will be tightly grouped for a while.

 Also, if you appoint each blocker on the spot above where the releasing basher will fall, the blocker should fall first, and the basher a second later. This way, the same two lemmings will be used to block throughout the level, and the same lemming will be used to bash so you're not breaking up any of the tight groups. Using this method, throughout the level you should have no more than about five tight groups walking back and forth.

 I don't really want to edit the level, although I agree it can be frustrating. Try the hints and it should be a lot easier.

 Thanks for playing!

http://www.zone.ee/adversa/TheLandOfOz.zip
or
http://www.zone.ee/adversa/TheLandOfOz.rar
And all the necessary style files (heck, i'm sure you won't need them all, but as i don't EXACTLY remember which styles you need) here: http://www.zone.ee/adversa/OzReq.zip
or
http://www.zone.ee/adversa/OzReq.rar

Some description: The Land Of Oz.
The set contains 10 levels w/ increasing difficulty. The first two are just something to get your fingers warmed up while the rest peovide you with at least somewhat of a puzzle. 3 of the levels use the Shadow style - it's my favorite and it had the coolest levels in Lemmings 2.
Here are the descriptions for all of the levels (you've got to ask me for more hints/tips or a walkthrough Wink) Pros might just as well as skip the first 2-3 levels.

Level 1 - Snowville lems
This is a really straightforward one. A few clicks here and there and that's it.

Level 2 - Little galactoids
A simple level showing how cool the "Galaxy" style is (praise the author). There are arrows that are going to help you through the level. I kind of tried to be as confusing as the Space Tribe in L2, but i guess i failed Tongue

Level 3 - Wide Spread
Beginners might find this one a problem. Or then not. Pretty simple as well, just mind the diggers.
Level 4 - Hole Potting
Now we are closely getting to the point. You need a bit of skills to get through this piece of metal. You'll be fine as long as you remember to conserve your tools.

Level 5 - The Downside of Being Upside
Aha! The first Shadow level! Think before you act and act well. No excess tools for you this time, so make your plans THOROUGHLY!

Level 6 - Tea For Two
When good at dig-building and bash-building, this should be a doddle!

Level 7 - Go For Be Low
This is a remake of a L2 Classic Tribe level. The final moves differ from the original, but the point is the same. Don't bother digging right through the ground, you will fail.

Level 8 - The Roughinery
(Guess where i stole the name from Tongue...) ...but it's more appropriate to this level. Thins get dicy from here on. If at first, you won't succeed, as you'll have to develop a minimum-builder tactic.

Level 9 - Prison of Mind
^ The one with the trick. Or even a few you might say. There are excessive tols on this stage. I REALLY wanted to cut the amount of builders down, but it might have got too annoying at the "digging" part.

Level 10 - The Land Of Oz
The grand one. The huge one. The level that will hopefully beat the crap out of you. Once again with a L2 hint - the name 'n' stuff.  You won't have any room for error on this level. Pixel-building, altered digging methods, multitasking - you'll encounter all of this. Keep your finger on the "P" button and prepare for some restart-replays.

As i copied the text, when it says "Tongue" then think of the :P smily

Oh no! The files are corrupt! :-(

No they aren't :P Adam could play them. If you can't download them by clicking (there is a "download will start in 3 seconds" page or smth else), use right-click+save target as.
And just in case, here's the unzipped version: http://www.zone.ee/adversa/TheLandOfOz.set

I don't know what's wrong, but Cheapo can't play it! :-(

Anybody else tried them?

Yup, I have, and it works fine, I haven't tried some levels yet

Syntax, it seems it's a problem, either with the server or with Mozilla. When I downloaded it with Mozilla the file was corrupted, but I've downloaded them with IE and they work! :???: Anyway, now I can play them . . .

 Can anyone else download them with Mozilla?

 edit:

 Okay, I've just finished the pack. You have some very enjoyable and well designed levels, Syntax! The last two took some thought. My favourite are Little Galactoids (but why all the arrows?) and The Roughinery (clever use of the fall-directly-into-the exit trick!)

 edit: My full review is on Garjen.

Please try this: http://uk.geocities.com/benjconway79/spaces.zip (edited to give 35 builers, from 30) (re-edited back down to 30)

 Well, I did have a post saying that I couldn't pass it, but now I just have. Oh well, I'll keep it up for anyone else to try.

 Have fun!

Heh, nice level. A bit hard for me, but I get the general idea easily enough.

- - -

I have a new Cheapo set for download! It's the one I mentioned a while ago, based on the old notebook levels I recently found that I designed when I was around nine or ten. Most of the levels weren't worth saving at all, but I've picked out ten of the best for your amusement.

Download:
http://www.geocities.com/zarathustra47/Notebook.ZIP

EDIT: I've also done a sequel to "Somewhere Under the Rainbow", one of the levels from the notebook set. Download it here (but try the original level first):

http://www.geocities.com/zarathustra47/cheapo.ZIP

Cool levels! I've passed all but Behind Bars and Under the Rainbow part two. Any hints?

Aah...... oops. Behind Bars wasn't possible the way I intended; however, if you download it again (same link) it should be possible now. I've had to change the skills a little.....

Somewhere Under the Rainbow II should be easy to think of the solution...... after all, there aren't a lot of possible routes to try. (Working out how exactly to implement it is the hard bit, and I'll give you one hint. It involves changing the release rate to 99 at a specific time.)

I haven't worked on my notebook sets in ages -- I may just drop the number of levels per set to 20 each and move a few around.

Anyways, I just DLed your set, Ahribar, and I'll comment on it shortly.

I've made a 30-strong set called "Why Bother?", but would anybody be willing to host it, given that I don't actually have a website to do so with?

I'll do it. I have an FTP account on the domain "noblesse-oblige.org". Ship the file to the e-mail

"stem_balo[at]sbcglobal[dot]net" And I'll host it for you.

Ta muchly. I've just sent it.

Ok, your set can be downloaded here:

http://www.noblesse-oblige.org/insanesteve/Why_Bother.set

Thanks! I'll play it soon as I have the time to.

Cheers! Just a few notes for anyone downloading it: it's of Sunsoft difficulty for the most part I think, although the early levels are quite a bit easier than the later ones. If anyone finds what they believe to be shortcuts in any of the levels, do let me know.

aaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggghhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

...........................

<whatever other emoticons, words, anything else might possibly express my complete awe>

OK, I've never played the real Sunsoft levels, so I don't know whether these really are better than them...... but they're definitely the best Cheapo levels I've seen. The visual appearance is awesome -- how long did they take you to make? -- and although I can't really tell until I complete them, they all seem extremely well designed. Would you care to give me a tutorial some time?

I completed Level 1 without too much trouble -- nice gentle start there.

You misspelled " Pythagoras", which is a heinous sin.

Unless there's a trick to it that I've missed, Level 12, Pipe Down!, seems a bit too easy for its place? I mean, it's practically the only one that I think I can see how to solve.

The late levels (22 onwards) don't work because you've used the level number as the music number in all cases, and the standard styles don't actually contain that many musics. You'll have to either re-use musics or use different styles (I highly recommend the Lemmus styles if you want them).

And finally...... someone had to say it...... can you guarantee that those are all possible in their Cheapo incarnations? (The music bug does make me suspect you converted them from something else and haven't playtested the Cheapo versions -- forgive me if I'm jumping to conclusions.)

So many questions, so little time...nah, just kidding, I've got all day.

Most of the levels didn't take too long to make as I had the ideas in my head before hand...although some took a lot of tweaking to make them work properly. "Savage Garden" in particular took ages to make work...and there's probably still a backroute in there somewhere!

Misspelling Pythagoras doesn't surprise me...I had the word "Aqueduct" spelled incorrectly for ages before I realised it was spelt with an 'e', not an 'a'.

"Pipe Down!" does look easy from the outset - the main challenge in the level is getting all the Lemmings into the exit within 3 minutes, which there's a little trick to. It probably is one of the easiest though - it's sometimes hard to tell what's harder than what when you make these levels because you know all the solutions to them, so you can't really distance yourself and see how difficult the solutions will be for others to find.

The music was a last minute thing on my part as I tend to play the game with the music off so I only thought about assigning different music at the end. I did wonder about that though: when I tried to do "The Monolith" the game crashed so I changed the music and it worked fine. I'll sort that out for you.

Finally, yes, I can guarantee that all the levels are possible - I made them in Cheapo and tested them all. Some of the later levels are a bit fiddly - "The Aqueduct" in particular will probably send the "P" key on your keyboard into early retirement - but still entirely possible.

Isn't it ironic that only months ago, we had this heated discussion about someone's complaint of Mike's mispellings?  ;)

(yeah I know the circumstances and the contention were quite different, still, interesting how different the reactions had been, and also how interesting that the last time people focused on the spelling aspect so much even though the real issue was something else...)

Ok, the new set is uploaded, same link as before.

These are possibly the most difficult set of 30 levels I've seen. The first level is eeriely similar to a level in the SECOND set of my stages... And About 2/3 of these levels of yours would probably go in the latter half of my 4th set. They are challenging and very well designed, although I've only passed about 5 of them thus far, most in the early few.

I was about to report the last few not working, myself, still -- excellent levels!

Actually, stage ... I think it was 22? is still not working. It's the one with the barrels stacked.

And I passed Stage #9 with one fewer basher and climber. Might be a back-route.

Nah, it's not a backroute. The extra builder and climber are there for...well, maybe I shouldn't give it away. Just to speed things up to reach the 3 minute time limit, although I guess they're not needed.

I'll sort out level 22 now. And also I've edited one level as Ben (who made the level Oh Well) spotted loads of backroutes in it. I'll send it tomorrow, once I sort my PC out (it's suddenly gone a bit slow).

I solved Level 2! I'm so happy..........

Level 2 is clever. Took me about 3 or 4 minutes to work out, and a few attempts to, well, you know... (Don't want to give away the answer...)

Right now, I have a little less than half the levels cleared, routes for another 5-7 of them that may be right but I haven't gotten to work yet, and the rest I'm completely stumped on. As of right now.

The link is updated, once again. 22 is working and a couple back-routes are fixed.

Which levels have you cleared, Steve, out of curiosity?

Lesse here:

1, 2, 4, 6, 7, 9, 10, 12, 15, 17, 26.

11. I thought I had a couple more, but I guess more of them are in the "Cleared in mind" category instead of the "cleared in game" category.

With levels 12 and 15, did they seem a bit too straightforward when you played them through or did the problems of time make themselves known? Serious question.

Ben here (author of Oh Well), signing in  ;P

I passed #12 with about 0:06 on the clock. However, I found it one of the easier levels in the set.

#15, I didn't offhand notice the clock, if I remember right. I'll re-play my solution to see what the timer says when I pass it.

EDIT: 0:04. I guess the timer was a bit tighter than I figured. Although, I DID save 100%, and didn't need the bomber.

Oh Well is one of those levels that I'm sitting there, going "How the--?" at. No idea whatsoever what to do with that one. Yet.

Could you e-mail me your solutions to 12 and 15? I'm interested to know how you did it without a bomber.

Ok, my answers have been sent. If my answer to #15 is not the intended one, it seems like it'd be VERY easy to revise the level to fix it.

Solved level 4, think it may be a backroute. I only needed three of the miners.

Steve, I know "Why Bother?" is stealing the limelight at the moment, and deservedly so, but I still hope you will be able to find time to comment on my notebook set.

Gunpowder, which levels have been updated for backroutes? So far I've passed 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9 and 12. A few questions:

 Doesn't Builder vs. Boulder require 3 blockers and 97%? That's the only way I can think of!

 Are you sure The Needy Bunch is possible? Because there's a bug where lemmings can't climb near the bottom of the screen.

 Cool levels, and very well designed! I'm off to try levels 13+ . . . I'll comment on all of them when I've cleared the pack.

 btw, welcome to the site, Gunpowder and Ben! (my name's Ben as well!)

 edit: I've just passed The Revolutions will not be Lemevised. Very clever design, and it took ages to figure out! Although I think it's a backroute. I had 1:07 left and saved 99.

 edit edit: I've just spent the last 25 minutes trying in vain to figure out Why Bother?, and I'm still no closer to finding a solution. Can I assume that there isn't a hidden exit and the solution doesn't involve the small thing in the top right-hand corner? :???:

 edit edit edit: Woohoo! Just passed Why Bother?! It took a few attempts, but it was well worth it. Very clever! Not sure it's the intended solution, but I can't imagine there being any other. I passed it with 2 diggers left and 1:05 remaining on the clock.

Ahriba, that does indeed sound like a backroute for level #4. Care to e-mail me at "purpletraitor[at]msn[dot]com" with the details?

Conway: Builder vs. Boulder only requires 2 blockers and 98%. Bear in mind that there are a LOT of builders at your disposal. Also, I am aware of that climber bug which I've had to work round in several different levels (check out that extra bit of pipe at the bottom of the one way wall in The Laserium!) but fortunately The Needy Bunch is still possible. Again, think about the builders!

That "Revolutions..." one sounds like it MAY be a backroute, although it's kind of designed so that there's more than one way of doing it. But feel free to e-mail me with your solution for it as well so I can check.

Oh, and there is no level called "Why Bother?" That's the name of the level pack. You're not thinking of "Oh well" by any chance are you?

Yes, 'Oh Well' is the level I passed with 2 diggers left!

 I'll have to try 'The Needy Bunch' again knowing it's definitely possible.

 I'll get on PMing you my solution to 'Revolutions' . . .

 Again, cool levels! I've just passed 'Bricklayer's Guide to the Galaxy', and it seems quite badly placed. I found it far easier than a lot of levels before it, and I saved 100%.

Yeah, that shouldn't happen. I think I know where the backroute is on "Bricklayer's Guide" though, and have eliminated it for next time...I hope.

Speaking of which, I forgot to answer your question about which levels were updated for backroutes: levels 6 and 17 were the ones.

Out of curiosity, what was the backroute to level 6?

I don't want to give away too much but the original release rate was 50.

Is that the only change? Because I've just tried it the way I'd done before (which didn't rely on a release rate) and couldn't seem to do it the same way. But I'm sure it's still possible, unless other changes have been made . . .

No, the release rate is the only change. I did attempt to alter the landscape at one point but that just invoked even bigger shortcuts, so I've kept it the same and just increased the rate a bit.

I've sent my backroute on Level 4 by e-mail.

I haven't received it yet. Conway's idea of PMing me is probably better.

EDIT: I think I may have spotted the backroute. It wouldn't be one of those "fall into the exit from a great height" shortcuts would it?

Yes. :D

You sneak! Still, there was a little bit of skill required to make that work, so good job. *goes off to add a strategically placed tree to his level*

EDIT: Actually, that incident has led me to find another backroute that exists in the level that leaves you with 16 miners and the floater. However, this one is also easily rectified.

Yep, 'The Needy Bunch' is a real stumper  :???:

Conway, congrats on finishing my level :) Could you PM me your solution, so I could fix the 'backdoor'. I'll probably keep it in if the backdoor is ingenious enough  :devil:

OK, wtf is up with The Laserium?

I've _nearly_ solved it, but the last part is incredibly hard. I tried bashing left under the exit then building back up to it, but he seems to hit his head on some ground that shouldn't be there! Is there hidden ground behind the exit?

And I give you fair warning that I absolutely refuse to attempt a level that uses those evil icicle traps. It will take me a long time to recover from the shock.

EDIT: in fact you seem to be far too fond of hidden traps in general -- you don't exactly need them when the levels are so hard anyway! I'm afraid I'm not very impressed.

Solved The Needy Bunch, btw.

@Ahribar, I'd stay far away from #5, then...

Anyways, your notebook. Some of the levels, and your descriptions of them, remind me a lot of my early notebook levels.

I've passed (so far) all but #9 and #10. As for #9, I'm completely stuck; I can't offhand see how to cut the 15 or so seconds you need off of your route. #10, admittedly, I haven't looked at as well as I could have.

Interesting levels, I must say. First few seem a bit easy, but it's the same with my notebooks. I think my route for the last 1 of each task level was quite a bit more complicated than you intended, but I couldn't figure out another way to pass it. Still, an enjoyable set. Nice work.

As for "Why Bother?" -- The Needy Bunch and Oh Well are two of those levels that look fairly simple but are giving me a LOT of problems. They are probably two of my favorite levels in the set.

The one gripe I have, and Ahribar hit on it already, is the number of hidden traps in the levels. Especially the icicle trap and the boulder trap: those freak me out when I can't see them coming. (That, and I rarely, if ever hide traps; I usually keep at least the activation button exposed when the trap is not.)

Well, what can I say? I'm a terrible jerk. :devil:

"How many licks?" is probably the worst level for hidden traps with a grand total of eight of the blighters scattered about the place. However, I will say in my defence (and this is the case with many of my levels) that I do try to put them in the most obvious places (e.g. the tunnel in the level that might make you think "Hang on, this level can't possibly be that straightforward?" ). And I have made some subtle clues for hidden traps in "Don't be late for church!" so I'm not completely remorseless! (close run thing though)

Oh and Ahribar, I don't think it's so much a case of wtf is up with The Laserium as wtf is up with your solution for it! Bashing under the exit? What are you trying to do? :???:

Heh.... that last comment made me laugh.

All I was trying to do is get the lemmings into the exit.... there is a one-way wall, you know, which means I have to bash through it right to left. The alternative would seem to be to build over the exit to reach the wall, but there ain't enough builders so far as I can see.

- - -

Steve: thanks for looking at my set. Glad you liked them.

They are mostly very easy...... but I was very young at the time, and didn't have much notion about what was easy and what was hard. #9 is certainly possible, but there's a catch to it. Which version of #10 do you have? If you only have to save 6 that's the old version -- I had to make some changes, so you should re-download it.

Please tell me your solution to #8. I have no idea what solution I _originally_ intended, because I didn't write my solutions down; the solution I found when recreating them needs five of the skills.

Glad to see someone shares my views on hidden traps. I _do_ hide the boulder trap in my own levels when I use it, because it's clearly designed to be hidden, but I don't use it much. (Only on two levels so far, The Corridor of Death and Rockabye Baby.) And anyway that one isn't nearly as bad as the icicle, in my opinion.

Don't forget to have a look at Somewhere Under the Rainbow part two!

I rarely, if ever, use the boulder or icicle traps. Then again, I rarely, if ever, use the snow or dirt styles. My desgin style requires lots of straight edge terrain, and those two styles (And the ONML rock style) have almost no straight-edge terrains.

I think in all of my notebook sets I've finished so far, I have one level of the 76 I have done that is of the dirt, snow, or rock varieties. And it has no traps. (And it really isn't that hard, either.)

My answer to #8 required 6 of the skills. I'll message you with it.

I quite like the icicle actually, call me a sadist if you will. I have edited one level - Frozen Peace - to make some of the hidden traps more visible, as those are kinda cheap shots, but I still stand by the rest of them: the traps are on the whole in all the obvious places.

EDIT: just sending Steve the updated version of Why Bother?, with levels 4, 13, 14, 15 and 16 edited for backroutes and level 25 edited to appease those easily offended by the sight of a huge great icicle appearing out of nowhere and turning a lemming into paté.

I'd probably like the icicle more if:

1) I liked the snow style better for level design, and
2) I wasn't 10 years old when I first encountered it. I can't remember the level I first encountered it on -- may have been Havoc 1, but I do remember being severely freaked out by it. Same reaction to the boulder in Mayhem 30, especially since no other level has it.

I don't actually MIND any of the traps, I've just never been a big fan of hidden traps in general. I will agree, however, that most of the hidden traps are in places where their absense makes the level absurdly easy.

EDIT: The revised version of Why Bother? is again up. Same link as the last few.

Haha, I think I was about 9 or 10 years old when I first encountered the boulder trap. It was on a Mega Drive exclusive level called "Stray Sheep" and remember being fairly put off the level after seeing that trap...although I think an equally large offputting part of that level for me was that it was a hidden exit level a la "Lost Something?" of the kind I hadn't encountered before (I was using passwords to just flick through all the levels I was too crap to encounter at that point in time).

Well, I was never really freaked out by the boulder, because I couldn't get past Mayhem 26 for years and years (it's enormously harder on the Mac version). I first saw Mayhem 30 round at a friend's house, and he'd already completed it so he showed me where the hidden trap was.

The icicle, on the other hand........ and I know exactly which level I first encountered it on, Wild 12 or 14 (those are both snow levels so I'm not completely sure which is which). On Havoc 1 the trap is in a long straight section where you think there can't be anything, so I was watching another part of the screen...... just the sound was shocking enough.

Ouch, your levels are hard. I've done levels 1 - 4 (all of which it looks like I found the intened solution) and 6. The Icicle traps in "How many licks?" Pee me right off. I could understand the traps under that ball of snow in between the two trapdoors, but en route to the exit? It makes the level seem impossible, (Although I'm sure it isn't) and I found level six a piece of cake compared to what I had just witnessed. Haven't had much of a chance to try anything beyond level 7 yet though.

Yeah, but as I've said those traps are in what I'd consider to be the most obvious route to the exit...try the scenic route!

Ok, once again, I'd like a few of you to test out a level for me. It seems extremely back-route prone.

Here it is.

The title is "It's One or the Other" -- and you need the BricksLemmus style to play it.

Doesn't seem very backroute prone to me. But then I'm not very good. There doesn't seem to be enough skills to get more than two lemmings in, particularly on the left-hand side.

Also I think I see what Ahribar has been trying to do in my level The Laserium and it's kinda a backroute, at least in the way I designed it. But I might keep it in actually as it does require most of the designated skills (as does the intended route) anyway.

Insane Steve, I can't play your level for some reason. It crashes the game! :-[

You need the BricksLemmus style to play it.

If you have this style, then I don't know.

It turns out, I had a style with the same name, but I found a larger file with that name in Lemdon.ZIP. Now it works.

 Cool level! It will take some thought. By any chance, is it one lemming from each side that can be saved? It's just a wild guess.

Don't bother with it yet -- I just found a back-route that makes the level rather easy. Let my fix it, and I'll re-upload it.

Ok, changed. Re-download with the same link.

It didn't look simple! But yeah, I kind of know what sort of backroute you're preventing. I still have no idea how to pass it . . .

Yeah, I think the first solution I managed for the level WAS that backroute but me being Muggins didn't realise and just thought it was a naturally easy level! My new solution involves both Lemmings going into the same exit and leaves you with one floater.

Btw, I've just been playing some of your I.S. 4: Hopeless levels, and there's some pretty good ones here. My "The Monolith" level seems quite similar to your "A Towering Proposition" level, albeit with a classic collide-stop shortcut (which I will rectify for next time!).

Gah! I've just spent about 45 minutes trying to pass the new 'Bricklayer's Guide . . .' level! I think I know how it's supposed to be done, it's just so frustrating! Damn you, Gunpowder! ;)

Oh good, I eradicated the backroute then.  :P

Yes, both lemmings should enter one exit, and you should need everything but the floater.

I also noticed the similarities between your Monolith and my Towering Proposition, although my level seems to be a bit less reliant on the miner trick.

I also think I back-routed level 19 of Why Bother?. I didn't need any floaters or climbers. I may be able to do it with one fewer builder (But needing the floater) if I refine the route somewhat. And, unlike the other backroutes, this one may be difficult to fix, depending on the intended route.

I can't do Insane Steve's new level at all, but I don't want to ask for a hint because that would point me towards the intended solution, which would take away the point....... I'm pretty convinced by now that there isn't a backroute though.

Gunpowder: don't worry about my "backroute" on The Laserium, if you read my earlier post again you'll see I can't get it to work! Though I think I'm closer to solving that level than to any other of yours.

Yeah, but Ahribar, the embarrassing thing is that I can get it to work!

Insane Steve, I actually didn't have the miner 'trick' in mind when I devised "The Monolith", and that's one backroute that'll be impossible for me to fix. Curses! Also, could you PM me your solution for level 19?

OK...... you will _really_ have to tell me how...........
:-/

I feel so behind! I'm still only up to level 15 (and I still have yet to solve 'How Many Licks?' and 'Builder vs. Boulder')! But the good thing is that I have solved every other level up to 15. Making steady progress . . .

 edit: Finally passed Bricklayer's Guide . . . !

Hey Insane Steve, the level closes the game! When I tried to load it, my game closed. I had gotten so far on "Why bother" too!

Try downloading Steve's Lomdon.ZIP from the Lemming Level List Game. It contains his recreation of 'The Bridge is Breaking Down', and, for some reason, a larger bricklemmus style file which this level requires.

 edit: And this 'Brand New Lemming Harvester' level is annoying too!

 edit edit: Finally passed it! It's a clever level, and the payoff is good too, the timing is just so tight though! Gunpowder, did you by any chance test it and fast forward it as the last lemming walked in? Because there's a bug that lets lemmings walk in at the speeded rate while the level fades at the standard rate, hence giving the player a second or two longer. Brand New Lemming Harvester is probably possible without doing this, but it's extremely tight either way. Unless there's a quicker route I'm not seeing . . . What's the shortest time you've completed it in?

Actually, I thought that there was more leeway in Brand New Lemming Harvester - I've managed it with 6 seconds left. I found the timing in Lemming Harvester a fair bit tighter.

Out of curiousity, how much time and skills did you have left at the end of Bricklayer's Guide?

In 'Galaxy', I had less than 5 seconds remaining (I could have probably saved about 10 seconds by releasing the crowd earlier) and no builders. The only skill I had left was the climber.

 As for 'New Lemming Harvester', I probably used a backroute, if it can still be called that considering it's probably more complicated and harder to implement than the intended solution. There's no way I could have had 6 seconds left. I'll PM you the solution I used.

Now I'm on Lemm'll Fix It. I love levels with no builders!

Yeah, I'm not much of a fan of those levels where you send one Lemming off to build a route to the exit whilst blocking everyone else, so I tried to avoid that, either by making levels with few/no builders (e.g. Lem'll Fix It) or by having a few bridges going on at once (e.g. Builder vs. Boulder, Bricklayer's Guide).

My level, actually.

And you still haven't told me your backroute.

EDIT: so people don't have to search through the other topic, which is the longest on the board after all, here's the link:
http://www.geocities.com/zarathustra47/Lemdon.ZIP

 Oh, sorry!

Screenshot!

Ah, thank you. Should be possible to fix.........

EDIT: Fixed. I simply made that wall that you mined into one-way. Try it now (same link)!

Oh yeah! B)

Tell me if you solve it....... or if you find another backroute!

Ok, for the people who asked about my levelpacks before the forums got reset, send me an e-mail at stem_balo[at]sbcglobal[dot]net and I'll respond with whatever sets and the like you want.

Gunpowder, in case you didn't get the chance to download it; my Cheapo LemEdit remake! I'd be interested to know if you find them difficult. Probably not . . .

Yeah, I'm on "Good Neighbours" at the moment. I can definitely see the similarities between that and "To And Fro (with Two to Go)", it's a great level. Yet to solve it though!

I'm currently up to 'The Aquaduct'. So now all I have to do is solve this one, then go back to 'How Many Licks' and 'Builder vs Boulder', and I've finished the set! Out of curiosity, are you working on any other level sets?

Conway: I've just passed Just A Minute Part Three (the one on your set, I mean, not the Genesis version level) and I needed the fastforward trick to get them in in time..... which makes me wonder whether it's a backroute. May I share my solution with you?

I finished 'Builder vs Boulder' with one builder to spare! :D
Guess I'm not as bad as I thought I was.

Not at the moment, I've burned most of my best ideas on Why Bother? so I'm just making the odd level here and there at the moment. Ben's in the process of making a set at the moment and I promised I'd contribute a level to that in exchange for him letting me use "Oh well" so watch this space.

 Please do! I've just checked, and it's definitely possible without fast-forwarding it. Could it be possible a different way by exploiting this trick? O_o

 Ben, I'm looking forward to your set, and I hope most of the levels are as tricky (but not as backroutable) as Oh Well!

OK; I'll PM you my solution.

So, how far is everyone in Gunpowder's 'Why Bother?' set? Has anyone finished it yet?

I've given up trying. I solved levels 1, 2 and 11.

Don't give up!!! =8O

So far I've passed 1-6, 7 (backroute), 9, 12, 16, 17.

I haven't given many of them a proper chance yet. Right now I'm working on 8 (Savage Garden).

Savage Garden's a cool level (and a cool band!)

I solved levels 1 - 4, 6, 9, 10, 14 and 17.

I backrouted levels 7 and 13.

Level 17 was very sneaky (unless I backrouted that too). Are you supposed to send a lemming over the top of the level? Because I did that and it resulted in me using 3 Bashers, 1 Miner, and 3 diggers.

Some of the later levels look very nice (and very difficult) but I haven't tried anything past level 21 yet.

I had a new idea for a Cheapo set in my sleep last night, I think it would be rather cool.

The idea is to remake all the backroutable levels in the original games (Lemmings, ONML and Genesis Lemmings) and do two versions of each, one altered to remove the backroute, the other to force it......

EDIT: the set is finished. Download it here:
http://www.geocities.com/zarathustra47/Backroutes.ZIP

Cool idea, but how do you know what the intended solution is, if there even is one? Some levels just naturally have multiple solutions. (Oh, and I've already done a remake of Stepping Stones, removing the stepping stones to force the ceiling route, in one of my Lemedit packs!)

In many cases (e.g. Present 19) it's just obvious from the skill set -- and the thought that the intended solution _couldn't_ be that simple. In others, once I've made the levels and you've found both solutions, you're welcome to argue them out with me...... but all the ones listed above I'm sure of.

Yeah, and it's given me more grief than a stab in the nuts! >:(

I'll take 1 Taxing, if you don't mind...

Cool! Send it to me (zarathustra47 at yahoo dot com) when you're done!

I'd think "Postcard from Lemmingland" would be a natural addition to your list of levels.  Though I guess that would make for 3 different versions of the level.

And of course there's "It's a Hero Time" where at last count we've gotten somewhere between, I don't know, 4 to 8 different solutions......guess maybe that shouldn't be in the list after all.

------------------

Oh, before I forget, which version of the game are we basing this on, especially in terms of backroutes?  Because as you know, in some cases a level solution may only work in certain versions of the game...

Let's be clear, by backroutes I mean solutions that are _easier_ than the intended solution. That rules out Postcard and It's hero time -- though what the hell is the third solution to Postcard?

I'm trying to base this on solutions that will work in any version of the game (except the Genesis levels, which are of course unique to that version), but if when you've solved my altered levels you happen to know that my solution won't work in a particular version, please tell me!

(I've already taken Compression Method One off the list for this reason.)

Well okay I see where you're going, but I can also see endless debate on what "easier" really means.

For example, is the ceiling backroute to "Stepping Stones" really any easier than the intended?  The intended method certainly is more obvious to conceive of since the terrain layout and title screams for it, and isn't too particularly difficult to execute since if I recall correctly, you have diggers for cutting short your building so they can align with the stepping stones.

Things can get murky since there's both the aspect of how difficult it is to conceive of a solution and how difficult it is to execute the solution, even ignoring the inherent subjectiveness in both.

And what about "We All Fall Down"?  Unless by "backroute" you mean the one from WinLemm (and ONLY WinLemm as far as I know) where they stupidly increased the game's max safe-fall distance.  Otherwise the only backroute I know of involves using fewer diggers, which to me is hardly the most obvious solution either to conceive of or to execute.

I guess it's still fair game though to remake levels with more difficult backroutes (whatever that may mean).  Instead of releasing multiple versions involving the more difficult backroutes, just release one remade version of the level that enforces the easy intended solution, if possible.

"Also watch out for significant differences, such as the fact that in Cheapo one-way walls are not explodable."

This killed something like 3 level re-makes in my set. Which I will likely be releasing with only 80 levels instead of 120, because a lot of my old level ideas were either infeasible or too easy.

EDIT: This post is from Insane Steve -- for some reason, it posted as a guest and I can't figure out why.

Gee thanks Insane Steve, I think you also got rid of the last post I made before you posted as "guest".   ;P

Anyway, I'll repeat my two points on that disappearing post briefly:

1) Cheapo has a higher max safe-fall distance than lemedit, so keep that in mind if you are going to copy and paste graphics directly from lemmings (thru DOSBox) to Cheapo.

2) Watch out for other game mechanics differences.  One-way walls are explodable in Lemmings but not in Cheapo.  In Lemmings the right and left level boundaries act as walls (within limits), whereas in Cheapo you die if you go off bounds.  And so forth.  The list can probably go on for pages.  :P

Yeah; that's why I said the list of inclusions would be open for debate. You're right about We All Fall Down, so probably best to take that one out.


Eh? I don't see the point...... whereas I would see the point in a version forcing the more difficult solution, since most people might not otherwise get to know about it.

 I know there are at least three solutions to 'Postcard from Lemmingland', but what other solutions are there to 'It's Hero Time'?

I only know of one solution to 'Postcard from Lemmingland'. I must be really behind...  :-(

I know just two:

(1) One lemming climbs, digs and builds before the exit to turn round, reverse mines, bashes left through the staircase, and floats.

(2) One lemming climbs and digs immediately, then switches to bashing halfway down the stair so the other lemmings can get past him. Release rate 99. First lemming builds over the pit; any that fall past him are made climbers. (This is how I originally did it -- trust me to find the most complicated solution!)

What's the third?

First lemming climbs, digs the left-hand wall of the pit a short way, then builds over the pit and turns, mines to release the others and floats.

Bah humbug.

OK, I owe you one for that, so here are all known solutions to It's Hero Time:

(1) First lemmings is an athlete. Last lemming digs platform, bashes OWW, builds over water. Athlete mines to exit.

(2) First lemming digs platform then bashes into OWW so that one lemming goes past. He builds over water. One lemming is an athlete and mines to exit.

(3) First lemming mines platform then bashes into OWW so that one lemming goes past. He digs down OWW such that the basher enters his digging before he breaks through, the basher stops and heads left. Digger then builds over trap trigger.

(4) Similar, but bash into OWW so that no lemmings go past; basher then becomes digger.

(5) First lemming mines platform. Block on top of OWW so that one lemmings goes past. He digs right edge of OWW. Last lemming bashes to release blocker; these two enter dig pit and, because of the sloping ground, are released to the left. Digger builds over trap trigger.

(6) Third-last lemming digs platform so two lemmings go down. One bashes into OWW then builds over water; the other is turned round and mines to exit.

(7) First lemming mines platform then blocks on slope of OWW. Last lemming bashes to release blocker (he will be turned round by bash tunnel) then digs and builds over trap trigger.

A couple of these solutions have to be done slightly differently in different versions of the game.

Wow! And you didn't even list the solution I knew of. That's impressive! Here's how I did it:

 Lem1 digs, lem2 passes. Make lem2 an athlete. Make the lead lemming in the crowd bash OWW, and build before he reaches the other side. Athlete mines to the exit.

:D

Ahribar, I _think_ I sent you the remakes of 1 Taxing

I got the e-mail but it didn't include any attachments.........

I should have done this a long time ago, but here's an update to my LemEdit remake set. I fixed a bunch of backroutes and did some minor stuff. Also, level 8 "Hurry up please, it's time" was removed because its backroutes are not fixable in Cheapo. "Try climbing that" was moved to 8, and I added a new level 10, "Evacuation".

Conway, I used part of your alternate solution to Evacuation in this new version of it... not sure you remember what that was anyway :P

Download!

I want to add the suggestion that the fixes should be made as subtle as possible, so that it is not "too" obvious (whatever that means) that the backroute is removed/enforced.

Good point.

Incidentally, I've finished the remake of 10 Taxing (Izzie Wizzie Lemmings Get Busy). I'm going to enforce the backroute in one version by cutting the builders to 12...... I don't yet know how to remove it without making it obvious, though. It wants a bit of thinking about..........

Not sure if anyone downloaded it yet, but I fixed (or attempted to) a backroute to Evacuation. Same link.

Let me know if anyone manages to pass the set :)

I've just downloaded it. Although I did manage to backroute the older version of Evacuation, it is probably one of the fiddliest and messiest solutions imaginable.

Yeah, I wasn't sure if I had sent it or not.
I posted the email again but this time its with the attachments.

Received; many thanks.

I hope you don't mind if I edit the levels a little though? For one thing, "Backroutes bypassed" won't really do as a title -- it would apply to the whole set, after all -- and for another, your version that's meant to force the backroute actually doesn't! However, I can make it do so by requiring 100%, so no problem there.

Backroutes Bypassed: Sorry, I couldn't think as anything else to call it, you can call it whatever you want, I won't mind.



What? Impossible!  X_X

I'll send you my edited versions of the levels so you can see what I mean..........

EDIT: sent.

EDIT 2: Adam's pointed out that the one-way wall version is still backroutable by bashing under from the other side. I'm going to thoroughly de-backroute it by placing a wall of metal there! Mwahahahahahaha!

Ack! Found another backroute to "Take the Stairs" that was very similar to one Conway found a couple months ago, and it's now fixed. Same link. Good luck.

Upon further thought, I guess while ideally my suggestion makes sense, in practice it might be somewhat difficult, since most of the levels in PC Lemmings have a bit of leeway in terms of skill distribution and % to save (though of course it's definitely okay to to change those as well if need be).

Ideas to make things non-obvious might fall along the lines of this.  Let's take Stepping Stone for example.  (Unfortunately by talking about it I've just make things relatively obvious now, oh well.)  To enforce the original solution so that the ceiling solution doesn't work, instead of preventing digging/mining by such obvious manners as one-way walls or steel areas, consider altering the ceiling to floor height so that it's just slightly more than the max safe-fall distance.  Or hide some nasty traps in the ceiling that cannot be avoided.

To enforce the backroute, instead of just removing the stepping stones, keep them, but spread them out a little bit more, just enough so that you'll run out of builders.  (Especially effective if you have distances of separation that are just a few pixels more than n builds, thereby causing you to "waste" most of the next build in order to reach the stepping stone.)  Or add a second, higher level of stepping stones that would interfere with normal building, causing your builder to hit his head in inconvenient places.

I realize that by doing this you greatly increase the risk of introducing new backroutes by accident, but given that the levels will be playtested a bit, hopefully it'll not be too hard to catch issues.  Even if in the worst case we have no choice but to fall back with making the easy-way-out, scream-in-your-face backroute-remover/enforcer quick-fixes, at least we'd had our fun trying for more subtlety.

Thank you, guest; as always some good ideas there. And I think I will have fun with a lot of these levels working out how to fix the backroutes....... (I thought of a fix for 10 Taxing, for instance, which is pure evil.)

ISU: sorry, I've confused matters regarding 1 Taxing. I'll PM you about it.

Ok, I took a lookt at the level on "The Lemmings Solution" and realize that apparently I've always used the backroute to solve it.

If you take the intended solution to be the one presented on "The Lemmings Solution", then actually you'd have to cut the builders down to 10 to enforce the backroute, at least on the PC version.  Presumably you've already modified the terrain so it's 12 instead?  (Oh wait, must be the increased max safe-fall distance in Cheapo.)

Anyway, I do have one possible idea that can enforce the backroute while keeping the number of builders the same, but it does introduces an extra aspect to the level that I'd rather avoid (I DON'T mean another backroute though).  I'll e-mail you on that.

I should also clarify that when I said "not too obvious", I mainly had in mind the perspective of a new player who has never seen this level before and therefore has no concept of either the intended solution or the backroute(s).  In other words, I basically were only setting the bar so that both the intended solution and the backroute(s) look potentially valid to someone who's playing the level for the first time, so that it would be reasonable for such a player to try all of them.  Although it would be cool to set the bar even higher so that it is not obvious at all even to a player who already knows the solution(s) that you're aiming to eliminate, that is probably too hard to achieve in many cases.

The point being that using my lower bar, the change to 12 builders is I think probably good enough to qualify as a non-obvious change.  Heck, even to a player who knows the intended solution already, (s)he might not remember in enough detail to realize how many builders were needed until he tried and failed on your remake.

Um, can anyone really say what the "intended solution" is here?  I think there are like at least 3 or more distinct solutions, plus countless minor variations.  Having only 2 builders is pretty much the main point of the level.  The rest of the skillset clearly does not attempt to impose any further restrictions or to enforce a single particular route.

That being said, we can certainly make a bunch of levels that tries to enforce one and only one route, for each of the who knows how many routes there are.  But IMHO this level is clearly intended to have multiple solutions.

Agreed, certainly.

Which raises a question.

On levels like 13 Mayhem, which have one backroute (that I know of) plus multiple interesting solutions, obviously I'd like, as far as it's possible, for the backroute-preventing version to leave all the interesting solutions in.

(WRT 13 Mayhem, incidentally, I disagree that "having only 2 builders is pretty much the main point of the level"; I'm sure the designer had a particular method in mind even if we don't know which. I certainly know of at least two solutions that are not backroutes.)

So what about levels with multiple backroutes? Should the backroute-forcing version aim to force a particular one or just to prevent the main solution?

Another question (purely about the aesthetics of this set): should the backroute-forcing versions come before or after the backroute-preventing ones?

One vote of "AFTER" from me.

Thanks.  :)  And the other question? Also, did you get my reply to your e-mail?

I don't have an answer yet for your other questions.  I did get your e-mail reply.  I actually have to head out soon, so I'll have to get back to you some other time.  patience, patience.   :)

I didn't know about that solution Ahribar. That makes three solutions to Taxing 1 instead of two.

Four, my friend. Four.  :D

I always had in mind to force one particular route per version of the level; however, I have no objections to simply preventing the main solution instead.

Sorry if I am interrupting the back-route set discussion, but...

Since I don't know if I'll have the time to actually FINISH these sets, I'm going to post the "2/3 complete" version of these sets. The files "ISDifficult," "ISMenacing," "ISChaotic," and "ISHopeless" are the level set files, the other files are style files. If, for some reason, you can't play a level, tell me which one... and I'll see what style I forgot.

Ok, I'll admit that the titles of the first two sets is a misnomer, but I started with these names as a 10 year old when I thought they were harder levels.

Download here. -- Enjoy! There's 80 levels total.

Four!?!  =8O

I only knew of three:

• The one where you bomb a blocker[*]The one where you go under [*]The one you told me.

Time for another look...

"The one where you bomb a blocker"? What's that?

And I'm not going to reveal the fourth solution; on my backroute-preventing version it will be _the_ solution, so I'll let you discover it!

Thats the one where you bash the first two pillars (or candlesticks) and mine the second, while a climber builds the rest of the route and you bomb a blocker to get rid of the stairs, so the other lemmings can exit. I believe that is the intended solution.



Great, thats more puzzling for me to do.

I see. But using a blocker isn't essential to that solution -- you could mine and then build the stairs at the end. (Or slightly easier: climb the first pillar, bash the second, mine the third, mine/build the stairs, build over the gaps, THEN bash the first pillar.)

But I'm quite sure that's not the intended solution!!!

Really? When I first completed the level that was the method in which I did it

That's one of my aims in this set -- to make people realise that the way they always did a certain level ain't always the only one.  :D

My latest level pack is available here

Adam, I'm not sure you even played all of your levels before releasing your set. Actually, I'm sure you haven't, because Level 25 doesn't have any trapdoors... But here's my review of some of the levels (except some remakes and a couple that I didn't play.)

Other comments:
Level 3: Why do you need the hidden exit? I managed to save them both in the visible exit.

Level 4: What style does this use? (I don't think I have it.)

Levels 5 and 19: Hint, please!? I can't imagine how you can do that with only 2 diggers, but maybe I'm missing something... Also: They're not "very symmetrical". Look at the center of level 5, they're not even. And the window placement in both levels is off (not the same on both sides). :P

Level 6: This one was kind of fun.

Level 7: I still think this one is too easy, maybe you should give fewer builders...

Level 8: Stuck on this one... It doesn't seem like you have enough builders, but...  I'll have to try again...

Level 10: This one went from literally impossible (old version) to way too easy!

Level 11: You could have made this harder by having a tighter time limit...

Level 14: Probably my favorite of the set, but you give too many tools for it to be difficult.

Level 15: The time limit is very tight... I'll have to think about this one some more.

Level 20: ??? It seems like you have either not enough builders or not enough bashers. Tricky...

Level 25: No trapdoor = no lemmings = not possible!

Level 26: Why do you only require 59/60 and give two extra builders if the point is supposed to be perfection? (I have a slight idea about the extra builders, but not the 59/60...)

Level 27: Why is this even here? Seriously... At least Fun 5 was fun to play...

Level 30: Sorry, I don't have the patience right now :P


Now off to try Insane Steve's sets...

I didn't check the sets, I may have added some old versions by accident. Off to check them.

All errors fixed, download the set here and the style here

I played through most of Difficult and Menacing on Insane Steves sets.
One question, why when I try to play a few of the Difficult levels it says that I don't have the required style file? I'm using all the ones that came with the sets...

Tell me which ones are busted, and I'll add the style to be downloaded.

Just passed I.S. 1: Difficult. I didn't have any trouble with any of the styles, except at first, when I accidentally unzipped the style files into the sets directory.  X_X

Level 18, "Stairway to Somewhere" is easily the most difficult level of the set. I agree with your introduction of it, but most levels don't seem hard in hindsight after you figure them out, right? This one had me stumped for a while.

In Level 10, "Orange Crush", I didn't use the lemming from the right at all... I suppose this is a backroute...

Is it just me or is Level 17, "Up the Pipe" similar to a level from ONML (or somewhere else)? It felt like I had played that level before. Not the exact same one, but something similar...

I know these are just the easy levels so far, but good job :)

Level 10 has a backroute -- one I carelessly tried to fix but failed to. I changed it a bit, and will re-upload the set later tomorrow. The backroute no longer works.

Level 17 was in one of my LemEdit packs. I think it was either 8.1 or 9.1, not sure. I know it was the first level. There's a few levels in there you'll have seen in my LemEdit packs if you've played them.

Thanks for the comments thus far! As I said, the first couple sets shouldn't be that bad; all the hard ones are in the other two sets.

Ah! That was it (8th pack). Thanks :)

I can't play any level with the same style as the first level in difficult, and many others close the game. I have that problem with a lot of your levels. In fact, it's so many that it isn't funny anymore

OK, I've looked through all of Adam's levels -- some I'd seen before, of course -- haven't actually completed them all yet though.


The hidden exit is, I guess, a jest, like that on "I've lost that lemming feeling" -- the visible one is the main one.

Your hint for level 5: you only need one digger! And almost exactly the same solution solves level 19. Very clever  :D

Time to try Insane Steve's levels now......

I put one of those in my level "Bricklayer's guide" as well.

When I played those levels, the skills were messed up. I've beaten 19, now I'll go try 5.

I've played all of Insane Steve's "Difficult" levels; so far beaten all except "Up the Pipe" and "Stairway to Somewhere". Thoughts so far (on those I hadn't seen before):

Minimalist Quandry -- should be Quandary. Other than that, nice level.

Persistance Builds Character -- should be Persistence. Very annoying, but simple to solve.

Beat the Clock! -- very clever. Took me a couple of goes before I twigged.

The Lemming Mental Insitution -- good fun, especially to go for 100%!

Twin Paradox -- both very clever, but your hint to part two is wrong. I had two skills left : climber and floater.

The Careless Level -- is the direct route meant to be impossible? I found it easy, but then I couldn't think of any other way to solve it. Yet the hint suggests there is one......

The last two I might comment on when I've solved them!

No... seems you found a backroute.


I beat it the direct way as well...

Right now I'm up to Menacing 14: "Mental Process". The first half of menacing is easier than the last few of Difficult. Fun levels still :) "The Narrows" was a little annoying, I wonder what the intended solution is... or is it supposed to be just one of those you have to fudge?

Shvegait's sent me his solution to "Twin Paradox 2", so it seems I do have a backroute after all.

Block. Build a bridge to just touch the wall. One bashes through from top of bridge, another bashes a hole in the bridge. First basher builds to exit; stretch bridges so he hits the wall and turns. Make him a bomber to get the other lemmings up the "step".

(If you want my advice for a fix, you could move the exit platform a little further so that stretching the bridge far enough to hit it is impossible. My solution could still work by making one lemming in the crowd a climb-bomber, but then I think you'd have two solutions of equal value, not a backroute -- which I always consider a good thing.)

@ISU -- You accidently copied the "ISWorld" style into the set folder. The very first level is with the ISWorld style -- and so are about 10 or so levels in the entire pack series.

"Twin Paradox 2" is a back-route, and one I can't seem to think of how to fix right now. Granted, Ahribar, your solution isn't THAT much different than mine, although mine is set up so that you need the climber.

"The Careless Level" is not meant to be directly cleared. A simple piece of steel may be able to fix that back-route. Looks like the title was more accurate than I intended.  X_X

"The Narrows" has a certain trick-ish thing required to pass it; it isn't a "direct, fudge the level" kind of level. Can you send me your solution so I can see if I can remove it (If it's too different than I had intended)?

Thanks for the comments thus far -- The first few levels of each set should be somewhat easier than the last levels of the previous set -- when I first made these levels, it was assumed that the player would not be able to play the levels in any order, so I set it up so the first few levels of a set were a bit easy overall.

You didn't like my fix? It would result in my route still being possible, but now needing the climber as well.

How many pixels would I need to move the platform?

Ten. (Or fourteen to make my route completely impossible but leave yours in.) Incidentally, IMO the placement of the initial view window on that and some other levels is not ideal.

- - -

I solved Up the Pipe, but my solution seems to be different from yours yet again, since I needed all the skills.

I also solved The Careless Level the intended way. Neat -- I had doubts about whether it was in the right category, but on reflection I think it is. Nice of you to provide two more builders than needed, for one thing.

Ok. I realise that opening window placement is spotty in a lot of my levels. It's something that tends to be an afterthought -- if and when I finish it, I will move the window to the right place.

The reason the intended solution to "The Careless Level" still keeps it in set #1 is because, once you realise that you shouldn't be able to build over the gap directly, what else can you do?

14 pixels? That's about a block width. I can remove one block and add a few pixels to the overhang. Thank you.

"Up The Pipe" is one of those levels that I honestly can't think of another route to. In my route, a lemming is made a blocker that isn't made a climber, but the other 59 eventually are. Can you send me what you did?

Shvegait, your route for "The Narrows" is kind of what I didn't want to be possible when I first made it. Couple pieces of steel should fix it.

Thanks for the comments. I need to re-make a few of these levels; I'll re-upload it all when I have finished.

Sure, I'll PM my solution to Up the Pipe....... but I honestly have no idea what yours can be! (Though I suspect it's similar.)

As for The Careless Level, certainly there is what guest calls "the route-obvious factor"; there's also the factor of how hard it is to execute the correct route, but as I said on reflection I do think it belongs in the first category.

Still haven't solved Stairway to Somewhere.......

Ahribar, Stairway to Somewhere took me a long time to figure out... You really have to wrap your mind around it and think of every possibility. I'm actually mad at myself that it took so long to get right because one of my levels (Try Climbing That, Lv. 8 in my LemEdit Remake set, which, by the way, has anyone tried yet...? Link is a few pages back if you haven't and want to...) is similar in that you have builders but no destructors and need to find a path that works. This is really a great level as a mind puzzle and it should at least be moved up to Menacing! It took me more time to figure out than any one level of Menacing...

Insane Steve: Chaotic 4 causes a crash for me. Any idea why? It looks like it uses your ISWorld style, but I haven't had any problems with that on your other levels.

Wait, I think I know. The ISWorld in the file MIGHT be an outdated version -- because Chaotic 4, and the two ISWorld levels in Set #4 all use the new music, and the old ISWorld style doesn't have this song. I'll need to upload the new ISWorld soon.

"Stairway To Somewhere" was, I think, the 3rd to last level in the first set of my notebooks. However, the last level was never used in this set* (Because it is a bit too similar to a couple levels later in the set, like A Towering Proposition, and "Honey, I Shrunk the Levels" [Which I've yet to re-make, but it goes in the middle of Set #4]) -- And the second to last level was the level that is now "The Rainbow Road" and I moved that one to Set #2, replacing the second to last level with 4 Pillars and a Trap, which was initially Difficult 23. Still other levels in my notebooks do not work in Cheapo. For example, a one of each task replica of "Keep your Hair in Mr. Lemming" (now with the "mine on steel to turn" trick removed) cannot work because the miner and bomber task work differently. I did a lot of moving levels around for my sets, and removed a lot of the levels whose solutions were too similar (That is, were superfluous). I've only got about 10-15 actual levels in my notebook to re-create... The other 25 or so will need to be designed on the spot. Maybe I can try and alter some of the levels I'm not using to make them unique.

*Think "Origins and Lemmings", but with only climbers, floaters, miners, and diggers given to you.

OK, I've passed Stairway to Somewhere, but if my solution is anything like right it should definitely go in the next category....... so that's all of Difficult passed. Moving on to Menacing now!

Just finished "Tribute to Benny Hill", and what a crazy looking level that was! They don't call ya Insane Steve for nuthin'...

I'm yet to pass "Four pillars and a trap". HELP!  X_X
Once I finish that, I'd have completed difficult

Oh and I skipped ahead to Hopeless and kinda wished I hadn't. The first level doesn't particularly give you any leeway in the department of time does it?

OK..... a couple of hints for "Four Pillars". Hope Insane Steve doesn't mind.

You've got exactly four destructive skills, so you'll use one to break each pillar. The use of the other skills should be obvious except maybe the builder. All I'll say is that the builder is also there to help you break through the pillars.

OK, I've passed Menacing now.

My thoughts on the levels I hadn't seen before:

The Suicide Pact: both very clever, but once you've got one the other one's obvious.

Quaint Spiral: aaaaargh! (Though thank God for Cheapo's direction selecting.)

The Rainbow Road: cunning indeed -- but you really have to be precise with the blocker and bomber.

The Narrows: seemed rather straightforward, but the difficulty of executing the solution made up for the obviousness. If you wanted to put a harder version in a later set you could restrict the builders to 12.......

Triple Threat: I hate you for this. How dare you say that it looks easy?  :P  Actually, once you do a bit of thinking it's quite a bit _more_ straightforward than it looks, but the route is hard to find.

An Idiot's Tale: frustration city. At least you get a spare builder.

@ drumnbach: Did "Tribute to Benny Hill" take you longer than 10 minutes? If not, you found a back-route and I need to fix it.

Speaking of fixed: The revised ISWorld file can be found HERE. It is needed to play Chaotic 4 and the two ISWorld levels in the Hopeless set.

Stairway to Somewhere... maybe it should go in Set #2. I'll see what other levels I can find for Set #1 -- if I can't find any fillers for #1, I can always make them -- levels of moderate difficulty aren't that hard to degisn.

"Inner Sanctum" is one of the few levels I've ever made where the timer is the biggest problem to passing the level. (Beat the Clock! has more of a puzzle element. -- Inner Sanctum has a rather direct route, but you have to be really fast to pass it.)

If anyone wants to give additional hints for the levels, I don't mind at all.

Well, maybe before making such a radical change as moving the level completely I'd better share my solution -- it's likely I've yet again found a harder one than the intended, which seems to be my specialty.

So I'll PM you with me "Stairway" solution and also "The Narrows" just because there's something I'm curious about on that level.

Continuing with the Chaotic set -- up to The Razor's Revenge now.

Insane Steve, I doubt my solution to "A Tribute to Benny Hill" took more than 10 minutes, either... I wondered why you gave so much time...

Where did you get that awful music for "Super Happy Fun Panic Level"!? I wanted to pass it fast so I could get on to some better songs  X_X

As for "The Lobby", I'd argue the solution is rather obvious. There is really only one place you could potenitally use each tool. The annoying part of that level wasn't figuring out the solution, but timing the last part...

Up to "Rhapsody". I don't think I ever passed your LemEdit version (but believe me, I tried!), so this will be interesting :)

I quite like the music to "Super Happy Fun Panic Level" -- but I will admit that it is rather ... strange... then again, so is the entirety of the ISWorld style.

I think I have an idea for a revision for the myriad of back-routes to "Tribute to Benny Hill" -- and I plan to switch the locations of it and "The Lobby" once I change it, because the revision will probably make the level somewhat harder to figure out. It should also result in only the intended (10+ minute) route being possible.

I may have a new version of the sets up (with one or two new levels and the glaring back-routes eradicated [I hope])) Saturday.

I made a level that needs backroute testing.

It's here

I feel it maybe prone to various backroutes and I would like some feedback on it

Thanks

Thanks for the level, ISU! I'm PMing you my solution.

Shvegait: if you liked "Rhapsody", you might want to have a look at a sequel to it I made (with Insane Steve's permission): http://www.geocities.com/zarathustra47/Rhapsody.ZIP

(And Insane Steve: you might want to have another look at that level, since it's been rather de-backrouted since you last saw it.)

Dang! your solution is a backroute  X_X. You're not supposed to use the bomber, it's there for consistency. How long did it take you to find the solution though? If it took you long enough I might just leave it in there.

Um.... not long at all, though I couldn't give an exact figure. Once you've identified the various problems on the level that seemed pretty much the most straightforward way of getting around them.

Oh, Okay :)

I must catch up on all the latest levelpacks!  :D

Progress report on the backroute remakes set.

Levels 1 Taxing (If at first you don't succeed), 3 Mayhem (It's hero time) and 19 Present (Acrophobia) are done. I've remade 10 Taxing (Izzy Wizzy Lemmings get busy) but I'm having problems thinking of how to eliminate the backroute in one version -- forcing it in the other is easy.

So, if anyone still wants to help, choose any one of the other levels, don't do these ones again!  :D

ISU, I've just passed your Fellow Heroes. Solution PMing . . .

 Insane Steve, I've jst passed all of your 'Difficult' set except for 'Stairway to Somewhere'. I'll have to think about that one some more.

 Persistence Builds Character - A reasonably clever level, but why 5 minutes?

 Flooded basement - AAARRRRGH!!! =8O All the mindless building!

 Beat the Clock - How much spare time is there supposed to be? I made it with 8 seconds remaining!

 Dream Ledges - I really enjoyed this one. The terrain is kind of minimalist, but it's still a genuine challenge. Also, it feels somewhat reminiscent of my 'Centre of Attention', which was also inspired by a dream!

 The Obstacle - The hint says that all skills are used except the blocker and bomber. It's also possible to do without the floater too.

 4 Pillars and a Trap - Probably my favourite from the set! I solved it pretty quickly, but I like that it gives and uses one of every skill, and the target to save is the most that's possible. The time limit could do with tightening up, but now I'm just nitpicking.

 Phone Call from Europe - Enjoyable to look at and to solve, and it even has a reasonable time limit! It seems a little easy to be the last in the set, Stairway to Somewhere should have been last. Also, what's up with the intro to this level? It's totally crazy!

I didn't look at Phone Call from Europe before, because I've seen it before. My solution then was a backroute and I understood Steve had fixed it. However, I went back to look just now, and I've found a new backroute.

First two climb. Third blocks before the teleport, as close to it as you can manage. First climber mines into blue wall. Right-click to mark second climber. Have him bash through OWW. First climber builds over gap. Time second climber to bomb structure on the lowest level.

As for the intro, it's just explaining how he chose the title....... however, Steve, I'd replace the double apostrophes with quote marks if I were you. It saves two characters, so you would be able to get the full stop on the same line as the rest where it belongs. Just an aesthetic point....... (pardon the pun!)

Yeah, that's what I did too.

Further progress report on the backroute remakes set:

Add 13 Mayhem (The Great Lemming Caper) to the list of finished levels. I just can't decide whether to make the time limit on the backroute-forcing version 1:10 or 1:15 (for aesthetic reasons, I mean; either would work to force the backroute).

That seems surprising.  Doesn't the backroute involve a bit of a fall?

Thanks for the feedback on my level.
I've now removed the backroute by removing all uneccesary skills. Same link or here

Further progress report on the backroute remakes set:

All three ONML levels -- 1 Crazy (Quote: "That's a good level" ), 2 Crazy (Dolly Dimple) and 2 Wicked (Introducing Superlemming) are in the bag. I really wish there were Cheapo styles with the ONML musics though....... they're great!

- - -

Sorry, ISU, I think there's another backroute to contend with. First left lemming mines to exit. First middle lemming digs before trap, bashes halfway down the wall, builds to catch right lemmings. Do this as quickly as possible and you'll only lose three.

Ok, I plan to re-release my sets with the back-routes removed, some level orders swapped, and a couple new levels. Should be out later today.

Cool, I look forward to that. Hope it will include some more Difficult levels, as I'm not getting anywhere with the last two sets!

- - -

One more backroute remake done: Genesis version 27 Present, Try anything once. I'm being cruel to the player. The backroute-forcing version allows ZERO builders. Steaver would approve.........

Okay, there seems to be an enormous amount of backroutes to my level (Just as I thought) so I'm going to PM you and Conway the intended solution, which is only really a variation on all the backroutes you've found.

The most updated version of this level can be found here. Conway's second backroute has been prevented but Ahribar's second one hasn't.

---

So for the backroute remakes; let me see...



I'll try "Come on over to my place" and maybe "Stepping stones". We'll have to wait and see.

Actually I've just done "Stepping Stones"  :P

Remember that you don't have to go to the bother of working out the separate versions if you don't want, I can do that if you just send a remake of the original level. Thanks again for helping!  B)

Is it a problem of the music not yet having been sequenced, or just that the MIDIs already exist but there is no way to incorporate them into the existing styles?

Just finished "Come on over to my place". Sending now.

Thank you very much!  :D

I've had to do a slight bit of editing, but that one's finished now. And so is "Turn around and look". There are just three more inclusion possibilities, but I'm not actually sure which of them will end up being included.

Expect the set to be ready for release TOMORROW!!!

- - -

guest: re your question, I just don't know. I'll make a separate topic about it....

Ok, the notebook has been updated somewhat, with the following revisions:

Back-routes removed in many levels of the first three sets.

"Tribute to Benny Hill" and "The Lobby" have essentially swapped places. The former has also been changed drastically.

Two additional levels in the "Hopeless" set: one a LemEdit re-make, the other no one's seen before and uses a (I think) semi-original trick.

Download HERE.

Well if you put it this way, I have gotta check out the level.  I haven't keep track of your previous versions of the set, so which is the level with the "semi-original" trick?  Thanks.   B)

This reminds me:  I kinda forgotten about your Mon0lith level.  I suppose at this point I'll just give up and read that e-mail with the solution (yep, I still haven't read it yet); I founded enough backroutes back so they make up for my peeking now.  ;)

Don't worry about The Mon0lith -- the back-routes that may exist are probably harder to do than the intended solution, and you helped quite a bit with the level. Thank you.

The "semi-original" trick is in the level "The Top Shelf" -- it will be Hopeless 25 when all is said and done -- the exact placement of the level it was meant to replace. The original level was, to me at the time, my most brilliant idea ever, the problem being that it didn't work with the Lemmings physics and I couldn't figure out how to iplement the idea until now.

Well, I think I know what the trick is, but it looks to be a royal pain to execute......

As it turns it isn't too bad after all.  Took a few retries as expected but I've now solved your level.  And actually it wouldn't have been too bad to do in Custlemm either even though it has no replay feature.  But you said the trick doesn't work there?  That's too bad, oh well.

"Semi-original" certainly describes the trick dead-on.

And like any good levels, your level actually led me to conceive of a totally different trick that I might use in my levels someday.  (Don't worry, the trick won't work in your level, so there is no backroute.)

Anyway, neat level, a nice one for the brain and eye.  B)

Actually, the original level design was nothing like the one I used for The Top Shelf. The problem was, the original level used the trick in a way that wouldn't work on CustLemm or Cheapo. I finally figured out how implement it in a level.

Considering the way you described your solution, I'm almost certain you found the intended solution. I'm also fairly sure there's no backroutes to the level.

I just spent something like an hour and a half and about 4 different level designs to finally get a certain different trick I just thought of to work in a level. Granted, the level isn't quite as hard as I'd have liked, but I'm just glad I finally put it into a level.

I just played "Not much to this one". Naturally, I found it rather easy because one of my own levels uses the same trick. I haven't solved any other hopeless levels though  :-(

I've uploaded my first Cheapo Level Pack. Please download my set and destroy my levels with all manner of backroutes.

Download from:
http://www.freewebs.com/toadontheroad

Ah. I take it you got fed up waiting for me to make a level to donate to your pack, then.  :)

What's with that expressionless lemming emoticon? Is there an online poker thread nearby or something? :)

Come on you lot, these lemmings levels are getting cold.

I think the smile fell off the lemming's face when he realized someone just hit the 'nuke' button.  :)

I don't have the right style for the dirt-looking levels........

http://www.freewebs.com/toadontheroad/lem-dirt.sty

I've uploaded the styles you need to run the level packs on my site.

Download my new level pack from here:
http://www.freewebs.com/toadontheroad/lemreal.set

Your design style is quite unique, I must say. I like it.

I haven't had as much time as I'd like to play the levels, though, so I can't offhand comment on them quite yet. The levels are nice-looking, though, I will say that much.

And I'm still completely baffled by "Oh Well."  X_X

OoooH, what a fun-packed level set! :D I've passed all except Ben's House and Oh Well.

 Blue - Orange - A fun level to begin with, complicated design, but simplified by the numerous skills, so it can be done in dozens of different ways.

 Stuck Inside O Mobile with Memphis Blues - Imaginative title, this time with a much tighter restriction of skills and time.

 Umbrella Gun - I has to use 'pause', sorry! But I was using the touch-pad of a laptop, which is much more difficult than a mouse. I like the idea of this level, and it's cool having to catch lemmings falling up as well as down.

 The Well Fills - I just LOVE the well effect! B)

 Do not Adjust your Television Set - Cool design, and slightly tricky to figure out.

 Well I Never - Another one where you have to make the most of limited skills. I'm not sure if I used a backroute, but I was able to have a basher or a builder spare.

 Asda vs. Tesco - Cool title! Are you supposed to get each group into a different exit? I found it easier to just get them all into one.

 Ballero - Hmmm . . . It seems very easy for the last level. I think I may have used a backroute. Here's a screenshot.

 Cool pack! Any chance of a hint for Ben's House and Oh Well? In Oh Well, am I supposed to get a lemming over the pillar and turn him back to mine through it?

Steve cheers man. I've never played "Oh No!" so my use of the Oh No styles are bound to be a little bit strange  :D

Conway: Thanks man. Wow that's one big daddy of a backroute. I've uploaded the revised version of Ballero: http://www.freewebs.com/toadontheroad/lemreal.set

As a footnote to this great event, Gunpowder's revised version of Why Bother was also uploaded to my site today: http://www.freewebs.com/toadontheroad/lemwhybother.set

PS Could you pm the screen shot to your solution of "Well I Never"?

Yeah, sorry it took so long to revise Why Bother?. To cut a long story short and make it somewhat inaccurate in the process, I couldn't be bovril.

Very few of us have what it takes to be bovril.

Bovril: Could you?

I've only played "Oh Well" so far, and I've gotta say, you won the award for sneakiest use of terrain on that level, hands-down.  B)

Can't wait to see what you come up with for the other ones.

Yeah, that wooden moon knocks me for six every time. ;)

Eh?

Ben, it might be easier if I explain my solution to Well I Never through pm. It's quite short.

Well to clarify, I wasn't actually talking about the moon at all.  But I'd say the moon is a creative use of terrain.  Nothing sneaky about that though.

And to clarify, I was making a joke. However, like Ahribar, you seem to have a huge runway installed in your forehead that leads over the top of your skull and beyond, and has a big sign next to it with an arrow pointing up the runway and the words "Jokes go this way" written on it.

Which, incidentally, is also a creative use of terrain. ;)

I suddenly have a new level idea...  ;P

And I finally made -some- prgoress on Oh Well -- I just need to figure out a way to do one simple thing, and that should be possible using the terrain somehow. Nice level.

Actually for your information, I understood perfectly what you were saying.  My clarification was mainly for the benefit of Ahribar, and more importantly, for Drumbach so he knows what my comment really means, so that he knows what aspects of the level I was complimenting.  You may note that I was clarifying my own comment and not yours, for which I don't really give a rat's ___.

So it would be nice if you restrain yourself in using such, um, colorful comments about forum posters so freely.  Though I suppose you're probably just going to say you're "joking".

There is, to the right of the level (small round wooden piece). You can't miss it!

Tough crowd!  B)

You must have all found backroutes on "Oh Well", because my intended solution utilises the wooden moon.

That's impossible! It's not even reachable with only 4 builders! O_o

 Anyway, was my solution to Well I Never a backroute?

 edit: Oh, I see you've edited Well I Never. Anyway, it still has a backroute. Just make Lem2 from the bottom build to turn instead.

Sorry dude, I thought I'd replied. Yep it was a backroute, although I'm starting to think that Well I Never is the most backroute prone level ever. I'll see what I can do with it when I get home.

Any hints on how the half-moon is used in Oh Well, or was it just a joke?

There's a teleporter in the half moon, which can be reached via an invisible teleporter in the big abyss at the bottom left of the level. You have to time your lemmings right in order to reach it, otherwise they'll just fall down and die.

There is actually a surplus of umbrellas behind the wooden moon that, once collected, can be used to save the remaining three lemmings. You have to get there quick though, so try seperating the lemmings into two groups and assign them their own dimensions. Use the '>>' control to increase the speed at which time moves forward in the former dimension, and use the 'paws' control to stop those lemmings in the latter dimension, creating a Bernard's Watch style scenario.

I'll take that as a yep!

Heheheh. (check your PMs :D)

So THAT's the way. I did wonder why the teleporter method wouldn't work.

Conway, was it you who found backroutes to my levels "Inside The Lemming Tank" and "Don't be late for church!" or was it Insane Steve? At any rate, my updated Why Bother? has had a go at eliminating those backroutes so do give them another go if you haven't already.

I haven't passed either level, so I think Conway found those backroutes.

I have another level I'd like to test out a bit. I'm thinking this is either going to be late 3rd set or middle 4th set.

Download here.

The level is called 3M, so it'll be right on top of your level list.

No it won't -- two of my level titles begin with quotation marks.  :D

Neat-looking level..... I'm not going to try to solve it just yet, since with so much building involved it might take some time, but I'll have a go as soon as I get the chance!

Not on top of my level list either, my levels that start with a 1 or 2 are above it.
I tried your level and I ran out of builders halfway through:-(. I s'pose when you think about it, you can only use 13 builders per section, It'll take some brainpower to figure.

Ouch, it's hard!

I figure if you had only climbers, floaters and builders you'd need at minimum 79 builders, so it's a matter of working out where to use the other skills to save as many as possible........

Well, I figured there'd be other levels above it (????? is on the top of my list, 3M being second), but I meant that you'd not have to look too far down the list for it.

As for the level itself, each of the three sections requires a completely different solution. And you really don't have THAT many builders to waste. I think I can do it with one or two left, although I used them all when I passed it. I'm thinking this is probably a 4th set level. It's deceptively difficult.

Sorry for being totally off topic, but whenever I read the phrase "deceptively difficult", it always confuses me whether the deception is that it's easier than it looks or that it's harder than it looks...... :???: ;P

I read it to mean that it's hard because it's deceptive... so that would be easier than it looks... when you know how (and there is something tricky that you might overlook involved).

But I don't know, either :P

I would say for it to be harder than it looks it would have to look pretty easy to begin with, and just not work out in the end (though I guess this is how it is with all the builders in a sense).

Actually, if you look at the level, there's only a couple walls between the entrances and the exits. The obstacles don't LOOK that bad, but clearing the level requires quite a bit more thought than you'd expect for a seemingly "straight builder" level.

It's really not straight building. Sure, you get 40 builders, an you need to use most or all of them, but their limited use is part of the big puzzle to the level.

I just find the time limit intimidating more than anything else. 3:26? Shouldn't we be trying to encourage people to use the pause button less? (and yes, I know I've made some evil levels in my time...I still lose sleep over it)

Not like we couldn't come up with a level with a time limit of 99:99 that still forces you to use the pause button......  ;P

Well... yes, you do need to smash the pause button a lot in this one.

Anyone pass it yet?  :'(

I'm on a visit to Oxford for a few days (it's where I went to university and many of my old friends are finishing their exams) ... but I think I know the solution, I just didn't have time to try it out before I left. Want me to send you it?

I don't have the time at the moment to really play the level, but I did open a second copy up in the level editor and done some sketchings on it.  From there I believe I have a solution but of course it needs to be tested.  Especially to make sure everything works under the tight time limit.

If you want to send your ideas through PM, please do so: I want to make sure the one route I thought of is really the only possible route.

Well, it'll be a little hard to PM as guest  ;), but I can e-mail you nonetheless.

Whoops, my bad.  I just realized there is only 1 bomber available in the level, not 3.

So back to the drawing board for me for now.

I'll PM my solution.

That solution is quite different than what I did to pass it, although it looks like it might work. I'd have to try it out.

Yaay! I finally got around to uploading Style Trial. There are some Sunsoft-esque levels in there...

I'm off to work on my Sonic mod now, bye. :P

I seem to be missing the styles for nearly all the levels.

There's a fairly obvious backroute on your " Private room available" remake. One basher, one digger. Then float, dig and build to save the digger as well.

Thats wierd. You do have Juanjos styles, the lemmus styles and the musics styles right?


Ack. X_X I can't believe I missed that one. Thanks

I found another back-route to that remake. It's a simple bash the wall, direct drop into the exit trick. The builders are used for stalling purposes.

I can't get "Please, Call me Isu" to work right. What style is that one in?

If I replace that red bar with metal I might be able to prevent many backroutes that level may have. I'll get right on it.

" Please, Call me Isu" uses Hydra1.sty and is available from Garjen.
(Good luck on beating that level, It's one of the hardest levels in the set ;))

On an almost completely unrelated note, how DO you pronounce "Isu"?  ;)

Isu: (is-you)
It's something I made up about a year ago. It takes the first letter of my first name and the first two letters of my second name. I saw it was a pretty good prefix for almost anything, so I decided to use it.

I have taken all the backroutes out in The Private room available remake. It didn't need any metal after all...

Style Trial Part I (1,283 KB)

I get a 'missing style' error at level 5 of your Style Trial pack, ISU. What gives?

edit: And level 7 :???:

You need Adam's musics styles for those. Levels 5, 7, 10 and 15 use them.

The required styles have been removed. Anyone have them?

I'm guessing this is a backroute to level 9: http://uk.geocities.com/benjconway79/pictures/deathwish.png

As I said in the readme, (Did you even read it?) there are backroutes to that level. I can fix the one you found, but the one [i]I[/i] found is a little difficult to fix without dramatically changing how the level looks or plays.


*Sighs*, They're here, via my site. (I hope Adam doesn't mind)

Oops! Didn't think of the readme.

 Thanks!

Thanks to Conway's most complex backroute to level 7, I have indeed finished yet another update: http://www.geocities.com/piainp/StyleTrial_PartI.zip

No, I haven't written any more walkthroughs. The readme files have been updated though.

Now leave me alone to play DROD :D

just made a very simple level paly an please tell me what you think watch me get flammed now ! ^^ http://www.freewebs.com/psyke_shadow/hell um yea !.lev

It aint' downloading.

oh crap i forgot sorry wait there !

http://www.freewebs.com/psyke_shadow/hellumyea.lev

this shud work !!

Might be an idea for you to upload the style file also.

It's Juanjo's Skulls and Visceras style.

I think I back-routed the level about 2 different ways, although it really doesn't matter because you covered the exit's activation area, and you have no destructive skills. Move the exit up a bit.

right guys im on it

http://www.freewebs.com/psyke_shadow/umhell.zip

done ! ^^

The zip file won't open.  :???:

wont it ?? !  god i hate my pc any idea ro upload it easyer

ISU, I LOVE the level called 'Call me Isu'! I enjoy multitasking levels anyway, but this was one of the best levels I have played in a long time. The combination of different methods it's possible to use here is amazing, and having groups of normal lemmings and anti-grav lemmings made it even better.

 btw: Your remake of 'Private room Available' still has a backroute. The first step is containing the crowd with a three-builder-wall. The rest should be clear.

 On to Cube2 . . .

:D

Thanks for the compliment and the backroute.

Wow, thank you, I'm not a big fan on multitasking, (I prefer small, cute and difficult levels). But I agree that that level is one of my best. I myself still haven't solved it yet, (as in "solve" I mean "pull off" ;)) but I know that the solution is possible.

I find that backroute a little hard to believe, because I removed the bashers. I'll need to take another look.
I've also got another level for you to try, If you don't mind...

Which reminds me, What is the solution to "Having your cake..." Insane Steve?

 ?

 Also, I was unable to pass 'Locked in'. I did read the hint, [spoiler]and I found where to get out of the room, but there didn't seem to be a gap in the steel to re-enter at the exit level.[/spoiler]

Which pack is 'Having your cake' in?

That level is in I.S. #3: Chaotic. One of the last levels in the pack.

Requires a rather interesting miner trick.

Which reminds me. I should really finish that pack. It's close to being done -- I'll probably just use 25 levels per difficulty set instead of 30.

Why does it feel like I've heard that before?



Another level that isn't in any of my sets yet. I could upload it, if you want.

I'll PM you about the steel area in "Locked In".

I have a little problem: I don't have some of the style files for playing Insane Steve's levels.
Those are the one for menacing 18, chaotic 16 and hopeless 17. (One of them seems to be the shadow style of Lemmings 2)

Can you tell me where to get those, please?
Thanks.

@geoo89 [and probably also Isu]: While the set's changed recently and the levels in those slots are seemingly different, I'm assuming the levels you are referring to are "Triple Threat", "Round Trip", and "Back and Forth". These levels use two styles from a member prevalant at the original LU forums named "Mcaleead" who doesn't post on this forum, I don't think. They are re-makes of the Lemmings 3 Shadow and Classic styles. If I didn't feel tired from having my gums opened to extract all 4  of my wisdom teeth today, I'd put these in a .ZIP file for dowload.

Thanks. I'll wait for them.
"Back and Forth" also uses one of those styles, but actually I meant "The Fireworks show".
Looking through your set with a hex editor I saw that this one needs PinkLemmus.sty, which IS in my styles directory.
When I load that level Cheapo crashes though. :???:

Possibly you have an old version of the style. I know the Lemmus styles have been updated once or twice; Isu had problems with one of my BricksLemmus levels once.

It seems the link that Ahribar gave me is now broken, so I've uploaded the Lemmus styles on my site: http://www.geocities.com/piainp/Lemmings.html.

They should stay there unless I have a very good reason to take them off, which I doubt.

Strange, it still doesn't work. :???:
Chaotic 11 "The razor's revenge" doesn't work either.
It uses CrystalLemmus.sty
Any suggestions?

I'll have a look at it...

Err, Sorry. An error on my part. I just checked the file and the zip had the old versions of the styles. It's been corrected now, same link. It should now be fine.

Ah...thank you, it's working now.
Also, looking through this thread I downloaded Insane Steve's first version of the sets including the styles needed, I only had the modified version.
So I don't need the shadow and the Chronicles styles anymore.

Steve, if I read correctly, you also made some other sets/levels for Cheapo, didn't you?
I just looked it through quickly, so I may have understood something wrong, but I read about "MS Paint adventure" and also some others, I can't remember?
So, if they really exist, can you tell me where to find those, please?
Or send to geoo89(ad)gmail(dod)com

I haven't been working on Style Trial much lately, I'm all out of level ideas!

Ya, there's four "rare" sets I made: The "ISWorld" set (That I made along with the ISWorld Style), with 25 levels, the "Do the Mario!" set, which uses the NES Super Mario Bros. style I made [15 levels], the "Mario Party Tribute" set, with a bunch of horribly unfair levels with the SMB style [7 levels], and "Insane Steve's MS Paint Adventure!," which is a bunch of levels made in MS Paint [10 levels]. The last level, Ramico's Revenge, is one of the last levels in the Notebook sets and is actually the inspiration behind the ISWorld style. They're considered "rare" sets because I haven't posted the links to them in years, and a lot of the "newer" members don't have them yet.

I'll upload and post these sets again sometime.

A preview of my 200 level set is available [URL=members.lycos.co.uk/stvfs/Adam's%20200%20preview.set]here[/URL].

Great, so where have you been lately?

200 levels eh?
I am a firm believer of quality over quantity. I am not interested in the release of this set as of yet since I'm afraid that if you have many levels in a set the quality of these levels will drop. Maybe I'll have a different opinion after I've played the set. ;)

I'm going to reduce it to 75, mainly to keep up the quality. Did you all miss me?

Here's something to keep you cheapo players busy for a while.

I'll warn you now, It took me the best part of 4 months to solve this. This is probably the most difficult level I have ever made, although you might not find it so hard. The funny thing is, no cheap trick needs to be used and there is no hidden trap or exit. What you see is what you get, or so they say.

ccexplore (guest) should have a go at this. I'm curious as to how long it'd take him since he seems to be the best player here.

Anyway, play it, and see what you think.

There are way too many things going on right now in both my non-Lemmings and Lemmings part of life, but I'll see if I can spare some minutes to look at your level this weekend.

And keep in mind that there's "hey yeah, I didn't think of doing that" kind of tricky, and then there's "You're forced to do pixel-precise bombing 80 times" kind of tricky.  Hopefully your level is more of the former than the latter.

Well, it seems (at its current status) like a strange level to me.
I solved it at the third or fourth try, so...backroute?
I send you a constructed (to show the whole level) screenshot soon, and maybe a short description per PM, although it's quite very obvious what I did looking at the screenshot.

I've just solved it, only took a few tries. 4 builders, 2 bashers, and 16 seconds left. I must assume that it's a backroute, what I did was very straightforward...

Edit: geoo beat me to it. I'm guessing I did it the same way he did, but I can't say for certain.

4 builders, 2 bashers and with 16 seconds left?

That is most definately a backroute. I used 5 builders and 7 bashers while having barely any time left on the clock. Darn it >:(. After being stuck as on how to go about doing the level so long I find it has a backroute that I most definately did not spot. How embarrasing.

And it's the former ccexplore. Well, at least I hope it's the former ;P

4 builders and 2 bashers *left*.

(That is, I used 6 builders and 8 bashers.)

Oh Okay. Sorry.

I hate to be a pain, but can you PM me your solution? I still want to know if it's a backroute or not.

EDIT: PM recieved. Many thanks. Shvegait, you have found the correct solution. So I am hereby withdrawing my challenge to ccexplore ("guest")

Um, ok.  I still haven't downloaded it yet, but I'll try to get to it sometime tomorrow nonetheless.  If nothing else I can still try to save more than expected or use less skills than expected or something.

I had one builder and 33 second left.
I said I'd send you my solution, and I'll do now.

hi
how do you drawer your own graphics like dirt & rocks
& stuff
the cheapo lem editor help file walkthrough the guy
did isnt very helpful.

That's perhaps true, but seems like everyone do start off from that help file when they first learn to make styles.

Maybe someone here can e-mail you an example of a .stt file (the file that the help file is attempting to describe) and you can try to learn by example.

Alright, I tried it just now, and I must say you set my expectations way too high.  I pretty much have the same experience (and probably the same solution, since I'm left with the same amount of skills) as Shvegait.

Still, a good level, keep up the good work.  B)

Ok, since

1) I'm going off to college tomorrow, and may not be able to play Lemmings as much as I used to
2) I've had a few people e-mail me about my sets

I have taken the time to not only re-upload my Notebook sets (I have 90 total levels in the four sets. I wanted 120, but meh), but also the three "obscure" sets I have made. There's an overlapping .sty file in the downloads, so... use the SMB style you get in the "ISNotebook" file. There are a few levels that appear in the notebook and one of the other sets; just a heads-up.

My Notebook sets -- Sets are "ISDifficult", "ISMenacing", "ISChaotic", and "ISHopeless" -- all others are .sty files.
My Mario and MS Paint sets -- sets are "Do the Mario!", "MPTribute", and "MSPaint". Others are .sty and read me files.

Enjoy.

Ahh, more levels from the uber level designer. This should keep me busy 'til Monday.  B)

I got 10 Cheapo levels ready right now to put them together to part 1 of 2 of my first set.

The file can be downloaded here: http://de.geocities.com/geoo89/gSet00.zip

Half of them use the brick style, sorry for that. I just realized that when I put my levels together. When I edited I put my ideas into levels, and the brick style seems to have matched often.
However, I'm going to make more levels in the ISWorld style, I didn't even used it once for now. :(

In general, my levels are quite short but tricky, and I prefer straight terrain.
Also, I tried to assort them by difficulty in my set.

Three of the levels are LemEdit remakes, but one or two of them haven't been released for LemEdit yet.

If you find a solution for any level which doesn't match with the hints, or if you find a solution which is in no way tricky, can you tell me please? (Exspecially for level 5 and 6) And also, if you solve level 10?

To contact me, or for suggestions, feedback, reqests for solutions, (or an idea for a level name for level 10 ;)), PM (IM) me or preferably e-mail: geoo89(ad)gmail(dod)com
Please note that I'll be away until Aug. 28th, so expect no response until then.
Thanks

I've only got to level 2, and I've glanced at the rest of the levels (Except 9, I think you know why ;)). Some very good levels there, It's way better than my first pack (Isulemms, see sig).

I'm hoping to release the second part of my Style Trial on Thursday. I have about 18 levels for that so far (48 total). Only seven more to go!
And I think I've neglected the readme/walkthrough for it for far too long.

Nice levels, geoo! Your style seems strangely similar to Insane Steve's, with the preference for straight edges and with odd time limits for most levels. I wonder what makes those two traits go together, they seem contradictory :P

"Little miner puzzle (part one)" was very fun to solve! Part two seemed too easy following that, though, and I even had 2 miners left over.

For Level 5, I managed to save 22/23. If the maximum possible is supposed to be 21, I'll PM you my solution. I actually solved it accidentally  X_X (Trying to do one thing, and yet something better happened from it.)

For Level 6, my solution does not exactly match your hints (might be close though, I don't know), but it seems like the level is rather open, with various options for tools and a somewhat generous number to save, so this should not be surprising. Plus, there are so many ways to deal with the trap at the end...

I haven't passed 2, or 7-10 yet... I'll need to think about them some more.

Some tricky levels indeed.  I did manage to get #7 (actually a 23/25 there) and #9 though, of the ones you mentioned above.  (9 is not very interesting by the way......)  #2 is especially making me go  ":???:".

So far I've not read any of the hints.  Hopefully it'll stay that way.  :-/

Oh. I just passed Level 9. Generally I tend to give up quickly on levels that have fake steel, even if they actually have easy solutions. (I made the silly assumption that the whole top platform was steel.) I don't care if there are steel areas on non-steel terrain (and vice-versa) if it is obvious where they are or there are clues as to what might be what, but otherwise I'm just skipping your level, sorry  >:(


Just passed 7. Great level :) Saved only 22/25 though. I guess that ccexplore's 23rd lemming is just a matter of timing... (Unless he used a different solution  O_o )



This level is a LemEdit remake. Maybe the differences render the intentional solution impossible? I have absolutely no ideas for that level anymore, since you seem to need both bombers to bomb through just one area... hmm...

The "Nothing special at all" in the level description implies that it's not intended to be all that difficult or use clever tricks... I don't know.



You might want to read the hints for the levels you've passed, if you think you may have found a backroute.

Actually, it's probably more likely that my solution is a backroute.  It's not particularly timing sensitive, and the only bit of timing-sensitive move wouldn't make a difference in terms of how many you'd save.


Well, that thought had definitely crossed my mind too, but since on later remake levels such as #8 geom88 talked about how a trick in CustLemm doesn't work in Cheapo, it would seem that he's aware of the potential differences.

At this point the one solution I can think of requires one more bomber than given and one less number to save.

I've also gotten #8 now (still haven't read any hints yet).  Turns out I was making it more complicated than it actually needs be.  I'm not sure I'd really call anything there a trick, but neat level nonetheless.

Just an update from me. I've managed to get a few more done but due to an unexpected event which turned my life upside-down I've not been able to do many. I'm going to make the predicted date for release September 15th.

Thanks, I played Isulemms a bit some time ago and I think trey're not bad; just some levels are a bit too large to my taste. For now, I played Insane Steve's levels very much and just a few levels of other sets. I played Style Trial I (I think you should know since I mentioned the backdoor for Lemmings' Ark; I now also play some genesis levels emulated and I think the backdoor might be possible too, I did a few sketches), and I quite like most of the levels.

Writing walkthroughs is also a little bad, I only wrote 4/10 for my levels. ;)

Thanks.
Yes, I also noticed this similarity. I simply prefer straigt edges; therefore I also like Insane Steve's levels.
For the time limit and the RR, I just typed in what I felt like, however with intension, as long as it matched to the level at all. ;)

"Little miner puzzle (part two)" was actually using a backdoor I quite liked I found playing an older version of the level. (I assume you used the trick one miner stops the other one)
However, I'll maybe kick it off and set another one there using this trick as element.

Yes, I checked it for backdoors, but I couldn't get sure that everything had to be solved in the intended  way.
The maximum is 21, please tell me your solution (and the "trying to do one thing" solution too, if it works).


I just noticed the ridiculously easy backdoor to trap the lemmings right at the beginning X_X
Well, I'll try to fix this. But if you found other ways than that, please just tell me which of the skills basher, miner and digger you definately need to execute your solution, both Shvegait and guest/ccexplore.

The nineth level's position is deliberately overestimated; first, and mainly, because I made it as 9th level and released it as g0s08.lev. So I didn't want to change the name. Now, I'll just keep the level file's names in the order I made them, and rearrange them in the set, also it might be a bit confusing.

For level 7, I absolutely can't imagine a 23/25 solution without timing, as you said.
Can you give me an explaination (or screenshot) of you solution please?

[...]

[...]continuing from above


Well, maybe I underestimated the difficulty of the level, but I thought the way wouldn't be too hard to find out. At least it is surely solvable, I checked.
[May include spoiler]Also, it seemed easy to execute when I decided the position in the set, but when I checked it now again, it appeared to need some exact precision, mainly because of the floor.

I'm curious whether your solution is a backroute. Can you tell me, please?

Well, I wonder, when you said you thought the whole top platform would be steel, whether it matters for your solution. For mine, it doesn't matter whether the whole or only part of the platform are steel.
If it does, I wonder what your solution could be.
Anyway, I think I'll mark the steel somehow.


Finally, I still think level 10 is harder than level 2.
You backdoored quite a lot of my levels.
Since school is starting again tomorrow, updating the levels will progress only slowly and making new

ones will take even more time than up to now, when I needed over three weeks for 10 levels (Ok, I didn't try to be so quick, but still). Thanks for playing my levels.

About Level 9, my solution does require only part of the starting area to be steel. You can turn around on steel by building and then mining. Then hit the wall on the left so you are facing the right. Dig now, because you'll be to the left of the exit and facing the right. Fall, you won't die (a la "We all fall down"), and walk in the exit. My other solution attempts involved all three lemmings and most of the tools (but failed), so I wouldn't be surprised if this is unintentional.

I didn't use the trick you described to solve "Little miner puzzle (part two)". I don't see where that would even be necessary. A lemming walking into a miner's path will turn around and can dig the other way, of course, but I never ran into a situation where I needed a miner to stop mining before it went all the way through. Usually the opposite would happen. I'd want a miner to keep going, and have another facing the opposite way, but the one facing the opposite way would stop the other miner... That was more of an issue with (part one), where you don't have many miners to work with.

I'll still need to give more thought to solve levels 2, 8 and 10 though.

(L9) Hmm, seems that I miss the obvious.
However, I think it's obvious how to colse the backdoor here.
Since you don't like 'fake-steel', I prepared an image with two
different looks for the steel blocks.
Feel free to choose one ;) : http://de.geocities.com/geoo89/steel.PNG

(L8 ) @ccexplore: would a 12 pixel block on the ground right to the very left bottom
staircase make you solution impossible?

No one ever reaches there in my solution, so the change would have no effect whatsoever.

Hmm, then the backdoor I found is another one (quite simple though).
Could you tell me in brief what you did to solve levels 7 & 8, please?
Since you're much better than me it surely would take me ages to find your solutions...

Also, I'm sure now to kick off the miner puzzle part two since my solution has no real puzzle character and Shvegait found a solution which is nothing special at all as he says (Although I didn't find it yet, as I said, I use to miss the obvious X_X).
Just to make sure, you used Havoc 5 trick twice in part one?
And, could you please send me your solution for level 5 @ Shvegait?

Thanks in advance.

Yeah, I used the Havoc 5 trick twice in Part One (and once in Part Two). For Part Two, there is probably just something you're not realizing because it's not obvious until you're playing through the level. I actually tried using it in Part One originally, but you'd need a couple extra miners to pull it off.

The situation is this. When mining to the left near the middle-bottom of the level, the height difference is such that several lemmings can get grouped together (if you raise RR to 99 and wait a little while) and make it to the upper bar (even though the miner MUST keep mining and all the rest of the lemmings will get sent to the lower bar). So what you have is, say, 12 lemmings (actual number can vary based on little spacing differences) in a clump walking to the left. In Part One, this doesn't help you: You can make one lemming a miner*, but the rest will walk back to the right before you can perform the Havoc 5 trick. However, in Part Two, your supply of miners is much greater. Since miners have a pretty significant initial thrust, you can make several of these lemmings miners to the left, and the last lemming in the clump can easily perform the Havoc 5 trick.

*You actually have one more spare miner, but it's not enough to do what's needed for the Part Two solution. I think you might be able to pull it off with just 8 miners, but I used 9.

I'll send you my Level 5 solution in a little bit.

Sorry for taking so long to reply.  The main reason is I wanted to find your intended solutions for those levels first before I decided how to answer.  And I'm glad to announce that I have indeed found your intended solutions for both levels (although for level 7 I didn't bother trying it out for real).

Well?  For level 7, I would much rather tell you how to fix it rather than telling you the backroute itself.  On the other hand, for level 8, I don't mind telling you my backroute.  (Wow, I always thought your trick for level 8 is LemEdit only.  Guess not.)

I think for level 7 my approach will be a win-win situation, since I get to keep something for myself, while you get someone else to help you fix your level, in particular someone who came up with the backroute in the first place.  Or rather, a solution trickier than necessary.

[As a sidenote, part of the reasons I ended up with something radical and unrevealable for level 7 is because for the longest time, I really thought the last 3 steps were 7, 8, and 9 pixels tall.  (Ironically, my 23/25 would not even work if it were really that way.)  Desperation leads to crazy things.  Anyway, so much for my ability to count. :-[ ;P]

I'll PM you what I believe to be your intended solutions, and I'll PM you how I first solved level 8.  For level 7, please wait a little so I can find time to test things out.  I can tell you though that for level 7 my main plan for fixing would involve widening the steps a little.


Nah.  It's probably just the "creator's blind eye".  ;) When you create a level with a particular solution in mind, you tend to overlook other ones, especially contorted ones that a struggling mind conjures from the depths of, um, something.  ;P  Remember, I'm still stumped by your level 2 which you believe should be easy.

Ok, regarding level 7, funny thing happen.  Because I didn't really try it out, one thing I overlooked is that I needed 1 more climber than there is.  So what I thought was your intended solution doesn't work.  (Yes, my own 23/25, no-timing solution I have definitely tested.)

But more interestingly, I was then able to modify the solution such that it still saves 23/25 with the skills given, even though this time it does require very good timing.

So, here's the deal:  I will keep the 23/25 solution that doesn't require much timing, but I will tell you (PM) the timing-required 23/25.  The fact is, they are actually somewhat similar.  Since I no longer know for sure what your intended 22/25 solution is, you'll have to fix it yourself, although I'm always here to help you playtest it.

A quick update on level 7:  at this point I have 4 solutions for that level, some saving 22/25, some 23/25, some requiring timing and some doesn't.  All have been playtested to work.

I have PM geoo89 two selected solution, neither of which is my very first solution which I probably won't reveal for a while.

I did however point out to geoo89 a simple, no-timing 23/25 solution that leaves the floater and blocker unused.  It is simple enough that even Shvegait should be able to do it.  ;)

Sorry for the late reply, but I had not enough time yesterday. :(

Let's start with level 5 (Shvegait).
The backdoor you found is not hard to close. Also, I edited a little to prevent the possibilities to do some other tasks which could be used for more backdoors.
However, I'm still not sure about alternative ways.
For the new level, see here @everyone:
http://de.geocities.com/geoo89/g0s09-2.zip
I'd say, if without backdoors, it is harder, or since I maybe underestimate #2, about as difficult as #2.

Also, have you already made a decision for the steelblocks for level 9?

-----

Now level 8 (ccexplore):
The way you told me per PM is, you're right, the intended one.
Also, the backroute you found is, as you said, easy to close; the one I found too.
If you didn't find it yet I can PM you if you are interested.
About the trick, see PM.

Level 7:
Also here you're right with the intended solution. I did it just a slightly different which caused that I only could save 22/25. Mine is a bit harder and I could avoid yours making the last step 8 pixels high, but maybe I accept it too.
Your 'infamous' first non-timing solution, whatever it is, will of course keep (if I don't make it impossible accidentaly).
Now, solution #4.
I think it would be possible to avoid this way increasing the height of the first or third 7-pixel step by one. And I'd prefer ... - 6 - 7 - 8 - 7, not ... - 6 - 8 - 7 - 7.
But I don't know whether #3 with the advantages would make the backroute possible still.

Well, yes, that might be another aspect.

-----

For level 4, I actually had a level idea for replace, but it turned out that this wasn't possible. So I have to think of something different.


Thanks you two for your help.  :thumbsup:

Well, bad news. I found another 22/23 solution, though it may be easy to fix. I'll PM it.



I would just use the steel blocks already in the style, with cut and paste to fit them for size.




Hey! What is that supposed to mean? :P

I think I know the general idea for #2, but I don't seem to have adequate enough skills to release the crowd. Am I right in thinking that a blocker is the only skill left over (as stated by the hint)?

:???:

I am completely befundled as to do what I did but with fewer skills.

I just solved it! I hadn't looked at the hint before, but for some reason that made me figure out the rest of it. Maybe you should have put a hint warning, or put it in Wingdings, but that's OK. Just hope that ccexplore doesn't read the hint... (He has stated before he doesn't want to read the hints. And if I could solve it after seeing the hint, well, he would get it in 5 seconds :P ) Maybe you'll want to edit your post.

But now I'm wondering what you did, because the way I solved it there were adequate (albeit just barely) tools for everything. Maybe you are very very close.



Here's another small hint if you want, Isu: There are two pixel-perfect moves.

I've also finally managed to pass Level 10. Cool trick!

I still haven't managed Level 8, but I think I may have found the CustLemm solution. Does it have to do with blockers that continue blocking when they go into bomber animations? Actually, I'm not even sure if my solution would work then, but it might. I've managed to save 17/20 using a route that ignores the left side of the level, but I'm not sure if 18/20 is possible this way.

No, it isn't that.
Also, note that the modified version which I didn't release yet has a RR of 99 and a little other change.
Actually nothing has changed to my solution, but I want to check it again though.
So, I'll upload it tomorrow if you want.

Level 2:
Isu, yes, you're right.
I wonder What you did, Shvegait, since I see absolutely no way for needing all skills.
Could you, and Isu, PM me the main idea, please?
And your main idea for level 10?
I think it's correct, but I never know...

About 5, I'll see...

geoo: I didn't use the blocker, but I used everything else. When did I give the impression that I used all the tools? It was just that a couple of the tools were barely/exactly enough (Mainly the builder you need at the bottom left... there is a only one pixel where you can start building and it will fit where you need it to). I even said Isu's hint helped...

I'll PM you about 10 so you can check.

I figure I should comment on geoo's pack, seeing how the design style is being compared to mine. (Yes, I do see the preference for straight terrain, and the level style built around incorporating one of two clever tricks into a level and designing the terrain to fit these tricks.)

Very nicely done levels so far. Being in college, I've not played them as thoroughly as I'd like, but I did enjoy what I played.

I've passed roughly half the levels, although I've been thinking about #2 for a while. I deduced what Isu figured rather quickly, but from there my ideas seem to be stopped by something in the terrain. I do have a couple loosely fitted ideas that may pan into something.

Level 5 I managed a 22/23 solution with only builders and bombers. Isn't hard to fix, but it may ruin the real solution?

Overall, though, very well made. I'll comment more when I have the time to play them a bit more.

Isu has edited his post before I read it, so you're safe for now.  Just as well, I wouldn't want to have accidentally read it.

Good job on #2 and #10. :thumbsup: I guess poetic justice for my earlier comment on #7 eh?  ;)  Incidentally, is #10 very tricky to execute? (not figuring out, just the executing part)  I was trying it again last night and almost gotten it to work, but the execution wasn't quite right yet.  Doing the left side of the 100% Wicked 6 solution would've been easier.

I haven't tried #2 again after about the 2nd day after the initial release of the set.  I can't help but wonder if what Isu was trying to do was similar to the one solution that couldn't work because I need one more exploder to release the crowd (because I needed to control the crowd by blocking).  I don't think that approach can be adapted to the given skills though, so it should be something else.  Guess I should look at it again later tonight.

Don't hold you breath on it.  My original 18/20 solution also ignores the left side of the level, but as soon as I found the intended solution I know my original solution is clearly a backroute and I have already told geoo89 about it, so if he did his fix right it'll probably eliminate whatever you have in mind too (or maybe not, we'll see).

Actually the part of Isu's comment that I was referring to he didn't edit out (but the part that he did edit out may have been a hint... I don't think it was though...) but I later checked what the actual level hint was, and well, it doesn't help *that* much. Maybe it was just one of those things where the solution just appears, you know?

About Level 10, it is pretty difficult to execute. Took me a good number of tries...

But of course I was determined to pass those levels (2 and 10) before you because of your comment  ;P



About Level 8, I thought it would be a backroute, but I wasn't sure if it was similar to what you tried or not (of course, now I know it must be similar... there aren't many ways to avoid the left side...)

Let me look at the level again later tonight.  The fact that you are talking about making some of the steps 8-pixel tall should help me figure out what you intended solution is, so that I can determine what level of details to discuss with you.  I just need to make sure what I'm thinking works with the modification.

What's all this talk of me editing out a hint? I edited out nothing. See, I have a tendancy to hit the post button without proof reading it first. I often make little edits in posts just after posting. Usually it just something as small as some punctuation not being there, or to delete a few unwanted characters. I have yet again edited that post, but then I decided to undo my change after reading the posts succeeding Shvegait's.


@Geoo99: I'll send a PM in a few minutes. (That's assuming you still want it :D.)

---

Blimey, I go offline for a mere two hours and I find nearly an entire page worth of posts was posted while I was gone. =8O

I do that all the time as well. Sorry for any confusion. ccexplore maybe thought you said a lot more, and I just didn't remember exactly what your post was.

Interesting.  I actually have a way to modify my 23/25 very slightly so that it still requires timing and saves 23/25, but should work even with the last step being 8 pixels high.  In fact, I think it might still work even if you truly have steps of height 7, 8, 9 for the final 3, though I can't test it fully without editing the level to try it out.  This does involve one of the things I did for the "infamous" 23/25 though, and to accomodate the increase of height in the last step it becomes even trickier to execute (in particular, getting the right timing for "the move").  The following ways can eliminate this solution, although it'd probably kill off yours too:

1) make the first 7-pixel step 9 pixels tall; or
2) make the second 7-pixel step 10 pixels tall; or
3) make the final 7-pixel step 12 pixels tall; or
4) make the top of the second 7-pixel step 4 pixels wider

(Well, assuming the timing works out perfectly; in actuality the last three numbers probably needs to be slightly lower because it takes time to walk from one spot to another.)

Your consolation is that I might be the only person to know how to pull it off for the near future (although actually, Insane Steve probably has the potential to figure it out himself...)

And so actually your intended solution is now somewhat of a mystery to me.  If you don't mind, I want to put this level aside shortly while I look at #10 and #2.

Ok, I finally got #2.  What a surreal experience:  I went back to #2 after having little success with #10.  I left off last week not quite seeing how to blow up enough terrain, so well, I decide to start off by blowing someone up without any particular solution in mind.  Then as soon as I start looking at the bomb hole, suddenly the solution came to me in an instant!

And I was right to ignore most of whatever geoo89 says in the level intro/hints.  I wouldn't call this level "nothing at all".  While it wasn't exactly very new, the solution is in a way fairly well disguised.

I'll PM geoo89 my solution, though I'm sure it's more or less the one and only one for the level.

Interestingly, I now want to play the original LemEdit version of this level.  Beside the obvious safe-fall distance changes, there are one or two other places where the Cheapo setup doesn't (according to my knowledge of the game mechanics) quite work exactly in LemEdit, so I am curious to see how exactly the LemEdit version was laid out.  Or perhaps a few of the differences cancel each other out.

-----------------------

#10 unfortunately didn't quite work out.  My "almost" solution, sadly, have some issues when I tried to make the tiny pixel-level adjustments I want.  In particular there seem to be some weirdness regarding how walkers/fallers land in Cheapo, which annoyingly seems to conspire to make what I want to do not possible.  Most frustrating......

Yet that's the only idea where I can even get anywhere.  I tried two other things.  One of them, a Cheapo speciality of sorts, despite many many tries, it now seems that the game mechanics just would not allow the timing or positioning to work out the way I want.  The other one is just to test something out, and well, let's just say it proves that the solution is not that obvious.

Oddly, I'm far from using all of the skills, which obviously makes me think that I'm probably not going about this in the correct way at all.  But the other skills haven't revealed their secrets/usefulness to me yet.  Ah well, I guess it'll be a matter of time.

By the way, seems to me your proposed change above doesn't actually eliminate the backroute you were concerned about.  You'll need to adjust other terrain as well.

Ok, 9 is done; actually I also tried out the steel sprites of original lemmings to compare which looking better, but I accidentaly overwrote the level and so it's now as you said. I think I don't need to upload it for now.
Hopefully final version of level 8 is here: http://de.geocities.com/geoo89/g0s10-2.zip
Level 5: http://de.geocities.com/geoo89/g0s09-3.zip
Since Insane Steve mentioned another backroute for this level, I don't know whether it still works.

Level 2: I misunderstood you Shvegait. However, Although your (and ccexplore's) way are a little different to mine, the main idea is involved.

You can download the Lemedit set here: http://eng-forum.lemmingswelt.de/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=level_id;action=display;num=1089136533;start=120
I don't know whether I checked the Level in WinLemm, CustLemm or Original Lemmings, but with a max-safe fall distance of 63px it must be possible, and with 60px probably too.
Also, the terrain was quite a bit different, so, there may be backdoors which don't exist in cheapo.
(If you play the other levels in the set, note that level 1 and 2 are only possible in WinLem. Also, I made two or three more CustLemm levels, one remade in Cheapo if I remember correctly, and one only WinLem compatible; if you wan't, I'll also upload them)

Now to level 10. The solution Shvegait found is, surprisingly, a backdoor. Although I pulled the solution off quite quickly following his way, I think I'll keep the level in that way since it took very long until the level had been solved in general; and make my solution impossible.
But, I'll release a level with a slight modification (in fact, I just put in a barrel) as a new level: http://de.geocities.com/geoo89/g0s11.zip
Please tell me what you think about that.

My solution is not obvious too (but I think you should know that). About the skills: Most of the skills are used. Just a very few are left over.

To avoid another delay of one day, I send you my solution right now, in Wingdings, if you don't want to read it but have to look up your IM box.
(However, I'm quite certain that you'll find it out quickly by yourself.)
Also, I upload the .lev file to make it easier for you to edit the level for testing.
My only problem are the non-timing solution (except your 'infamous' way of course), the other solutions are not so problematic (although my solution might be a bit more difficult than other timing solutions).
About your suggested ways to fix it:
4) would be a possibility, although it would destroy the look of the level a bit.
Your other suggestions are (except #2) both exactly one pixel (for #3 maybe two, but because of the same problem you mentioned: "assuming the timing works out perfectly" not so different) to high which makes me suppose that there are some similarities between this and my solution.

Thank you. I enjoy playing your levels too; perhaps they also inspired my a bit. E.g. the idea for level ten I got playing one of your levels (actually one of those I consider as hardest), which, in fact, I still haven't solved yet. Also my idea for the new level replacing #4 I got playing one of your levels (one of the "Difficult" set, which I later solved a different way since my old didn't work). I just need to build a level around this trick.

I've just now checked your actual fix for the level, so the above statement is longer true or relevant.

Ah I see.  With WinLemm, one of the differences that would affect the Cheapo solution no longer applies.  I'll look at the level later this weekend when I have time.

I didn't really want to read it, but in the interest of not being too overly selfish, I decided to save both of us time and read your solution.

Interesting, I'll need to try it out to see that it really works.  I've sort of try something somewhat similar, but it didn't work and I convinced myself that it couldn't work, but maybe it's a timing thing.

Unfortunately, your solution contains neither of the two tricks I used for the infamous solution and other solutions.  And the no-timing part is fundamentally difficult to eliminate, because the reason the trick works specifically has to do with steps (the height doesn't matter, just the fact that you have these steps).  So you can see now why it could be a little difficult to eliminate.  I'll get back to you later tonight.

I'm going to IM you now my thoughts on your intended solution.

Ah, turns out it's a Cheapo glitch and not a timing thing that prevented what I was trying from working.  You see, it turns out thanks to Cheapo glitchiness, one of the moves you used only works if it's a walker doing it.  If you use a climber instead its position will be off by one pixel and ruins your solution.  I'll PM you about it now.

That's interesting that the Level 10 solution wasn't want you intended, but it's a nice (although perhaps sloppy) trick, don't you think? Two levels for the price of one :P

I haven't tried the update on Level 10 yet, but I did want to comment that your modifications to Level 5 haven't eliminated my backroute. But, I will tell you that it just barely works, and shifting up that bottom bar by one pixel (two to be safe) should be sufficient. As it is now, the lemming just barely hits his head, letting it turn around with 2 spare builders, which just barely go high (and far) enough that the lemmings can hit the left wall safely.

Hmm, I look at geoo89's new version of the level.

The change makes me wonder now whether Shvegait's solution is the one I've kept trying but simply couldn't get it to work, because Cheapo was uncooperative.  I would hope not, but you never know.  A PM will be heading in Shvegait's inbox to see if what I'm thinking is what he did.

I'm also confused about geoo89's comments about Shvegait's backroute.  The new level with the barrel added in fixes the backroute, correct?

geoo89's addition of the barrel now makes me wonder whether a solution idea I ruled out as impossible might in fact work, if I use the skills correctly and with good timing.  Hope not, but then again you never know, given my experience with level 7.  It's no secret that I'm less versed in how Cheapo's game mechanics work, as you can tell by how I serendipitously discovered that climber/walker difference in relation to level 7.

Hmm, good news actually.  It turns out that if you make the last step at least 8 pixels, that alone will actually eliminate more solutions than you expected.  It certainly, for example, eliminates all the solutions I presented you so far, timing or no-timing.

It then turns out that what remains of the workable no-timing solutions, it seems that you are now forced to use both tricks (the no-timing and the other) in order to have a solution that saves enough or saves at all.  And so they are basically all comparable in difficulty (in some case even harder) to the first solution I came up with [the so-called "infamous"], which uses both tricks.

So if you are willing to leave the "infamous" solution in, you could also now choose to leave the no-timing solutions in, as long as you make the last step 8 or more pixels high, so that the easier no-timing solutions are eliminated.

Finally, because no-timing now seems to force the use of the other trick, you can eliminate pretty much everything but your own solution and a variation of my infamous solution if you make the second-to-last step wider (by 4 pixels or so, I need to test it out).  That prevents the other trick from working.  My infamous solution will not be affected by that change, but can be eliminated if you make the height of the last step at least 9 pixels rather than just 8.

Um, your thoughts?

Yes, that's certainly easy to fix. I just didn't notice that you could get high enough with the 2 builders left, which is obviously possible. X_X Thanks.
http://de.geocities.com/geoo89/g0s09-4.zip


Surely. ;) Although, I think, the intended way is even a bit more original.
But I want to say, I won't release the version eliminating my way for now since the changes would certainly give a further hint what to do.


Yes, it does (at least I'm quite sure). If not, Shvegait would use the same way for the changed level (but that should be impossible).



Yes, I'm going to leave it in. With 'no-timing solutions' you mean solutions using elements of your infamous one?
So, making the last step 9 (or 8 ) px high would eliminate all backdoors easier than my way not using elements of your infamous solution?

Well, I don't know since making one step wider would break the style of the level. However it would be a solution.
Strangely, I feel anyhow I want to keep your infamous solution in. ;) Eliminating variations sounds good since I think your original 'infamous' solution is the most original/hardest to find.
What's your opinion?

At last I want to say, if you're hoing to present a level using your 'infamous solution' trick, you can use this level as base if you want.

And just a little question about the walker/climber problem: I wonder why you didn't try it out in front of the first 7-pixel step (after passing the 6 px one) :???: (Perhaps you just tried it once and concerned it as impossible immediately?)

Yes.

[To clarify:  there are 2 tricks I used on my original ["infamous"] solution.  One trick allows you to not worry about timing.  The other trick makes it possible to cope with slightly higher step heights (recall that I originally thought the last 3 steps were 7,8,9, not 7,7,7).]


Hard for me to tell.  I have a knack for details, that's how I discover many interesting moves.  It's harder for me to tell how easy or hard it is for other people.  At least it's somewhat tricky to execute, and no one's going to ever execute the move "by accident", you have to intend to do it for a correct execution.  I do know though that Insane Steve knows at least about the trick that doesn't have to do with the "no-timing" part.

I do think though that with the "no-timing" part, a player will probably end up taking less tries to succeed, since it does take a few tries in order to find the right way to distribute the lemmings in your solution.


Thanks for the offer, although I think there are better places to showcase my trick.


I don't remember for sure.  One reason might be:  in Cheapo, you can assign skills during the climber-to-walker transition, and during that transition the lemming stays at one single location.  So I probably thought using the climber would be the easiest way to ensure that I start bashing as left as possible.  What I didn't know is that you can apparently be located at one pixel lefter if you use a walker.