I’ve recently discovered a few “challenge solutions” to various Lemmings levels. Some of these solutions involve saving more lemmings than what was previously thought possible with the given skills, while others involve passing the level with fewer skills than what is given. Please note that some of these solutions take advantage of glitches in the PC game.  This means that they may not work in other versions.  Here are a few to get started with:

Lemmings
Fun 6 – A task for blockers and bombers: Save 90% (or more) using only 1 bomber and 3 blockers (Thanks to Insane Steve for finding this one).
Fun 8 – Not as complicated as it looks: Save 100% without using any bridges.
Fun 10 – Smile if you love lemmings: Save 100% using only 2 miners and 2 diggers. Fun 12 – Patience: Save 100% without using any bridges.
The “We all fall down” levels: Pass the level using only 1/4 of the diggers given.
Tricky 23 – From the boundary line: Save 91% (73/80).
Taxing 6 – Compression method 1: Save 100%.

ONML
Crazy 8 – KEEP ON TRUCKING: Save 100%.
Wicked 6 – PoP TiL’ YoU DrOp: Save 98% (79/80).
Havoc 4 – The race against cliches: Complete the level using just 1 of the 20 climbers.
Havoc 16 – Scaling the Heights: Save 100%.

I’ll add more later.  If anybody wants to add some more challenges, please do!

Ignoring the alternative solutions covered by my "Backroute remakes" set, I've discovered a few neat challenges:

Lemmings

Tricky 26 - I have a cunning plan: Save 100% with one builder (Genesis); might be possible with none on some versions
Taxing 4 - Lend a helping hand: Save 100% without taking the "outside route"
Taxing 13 - Upsidedown World: save 100%
Taxing 26 - Triple Trouble: save all but one with eight builders
Mayhem 24 - All or nothing: find a way guaranteed to complete the level every time
Mayhem 25 - Have a nice day: complete the level with 6 builders

ONML

Tame: pass all 20 levels with 100% using a total of 5 builders
Crazy 16 - Across the gap: Save 100% with one builder
Wicked 1 - Lemming Tomato Ketchup Facility: complete with two bombers
Wicked 3 - This Corrosion: find a second solution that doesn't involve building past the exit
Havoc 7 - Creature Discomforts: Save 100%

Possible with no builders in the PC version.

Fun 28 - If only they could fly: Don't touch the floor.
Tricky 19 - Postcard from Lemmingland: Don't use the basher, or don't use the miner.
Taxing 23 - King if the castle: Save 100%
Mayhem 1 - Steel Works: Save 100%
Mayhem 9 - Curse of the Pharohs: Save 100%
Mayhem 18 - And then there were four: Pass within two minutes.

O_o

Hmm, maybe I'll try that one.

Heh, You should do a DOS or Cheapo pack with these.

I'm able to complete "We all fall down" levels without using any skills...

... of course, it is because I don't use the good version of Lemmings: the "falling too high" distance isn't the same.

This isn't as challenging as it sounds (and probably already well known), but:

Taxing 18:  Tribute to M.C. Escher:  100% using only builders

(Verified to be possible in PC version.  Obviously not possible in certain versions that, um, require the floater to be used.)

For those versions that requires the floater, modify the challenge to use only builders and that floater, still 100%.

How is that possible? Is the drop down the other side small enough that just laying one brick at the bottom makes it survivable?

(I note that Ephraim Vishniac's walkthrough says it's possible to get 100% on the Mac version...... but except for what I just said I really don't see how.)

No, you need 5 bricks to make the fall safe, at least on the PC version.

So you do need to do some work on the right side.  The modified challege is indeed probably more interesting.

Keep in mind that Ephraim Vishniac's 100% probably still uses the basher, which the challenge forbids.

I can e-mail you if you just want me to tell you how to do it.  With the caveat that fot the modified challenge, I've only tried out bits and pieces of it, on the PC version, to believe it should be doable, but I haven't accounted how much time it might take.  (Though the original challenge has more than sufficient time left, so the modified challenge should not have a time issue.)

Here's a different challenge for that level:  save all but 1 (90% I think) using just 1 miner and 1 digger.  (Equivalently, just save all but 2 with 1 digger)

(I've look into 100% solution using a subset of LemSteven's challenge's skillset but the timing just doesn't work out for the second lemming out, at least on the PC.)

Surprisingly, this also works on the SNES version.  I don't see why not push the requirement all the way up to 94% (3 lost); in fact it would seem more difficult to actually force 90% or 92% (not counting pressing "ESC" when you reach the percentage in question).

I think I might have figured out the solution to the Taxing 18 challenge, as long as I don't run out of builders.  I'll have to test my solution to see if it works...

Anyway, here's a few more challenges:

Lemmings:
Fun 20 - We are now at LEMCON ONE: Save 100%. using 8 builders, 1 basher, 2 diggers, a climber, and a floater.
Fun 22 - A BEAST of a level: Save 100% with no bridges.
Fun 23 - I've lost that lemming feeling: Save 100%. using all three exits.
Taxing 19 - Bomboozal: Save 92% (65/70) in one minute.
Mayhem 5 - Down, along, up, in that order: Save 95% (76/80).
Mayhem 15 - The fast food kitchen: Save 100% in less than 2 minutes.
Mayhem 29 - Save Me: Save 95% (76/80).

ONML
Crazy 20 - Ice Ice Lemming: Save 100%
Wild 13 - Onward and Upward: Save 96% (77/80).
Havoc 19 - Looks a bit nippy out there: Complete the level without using the bottom 2/3 of the level.

The "no floater" challenge you can get by with 14 builders.

But since most of everyone knows what "no floater" means and it isn't quite as interesting, let me extend the requirements of the "modified challenge" to all versions of the game:  complete with only builders and the floater, AND without "direct dropping" anyone to the exit (which some versions of the game do not support, and is the only way you can get away with not using the floater).  This will take up all 15 builders.

Ok, I think I finally broke some "world record" (in the world of lemmings anyway) with this:

Taxing 16: Mary Poppin's Land:  Save 100%

I've only verified this on the SNES version (I'll try the PC version later tonight, though the lack of savestates will make execution hell), but it should work on most versions unless the builder builds exceedingly slow.

To give you an idea, the crowd control "device" uses just 7 builders total and 4 floaters to setup.  So you actually should end up with leftover builders in the end.

I have a feeling Ahribar's challenge actually meant to say "use no more than 1 builder and don't use blockers".

Or maybe not...what worked well on the SNES version didn't quite work in the PC version without some modifications (but I am able to do it in the end; good luck if you try).  Don't know how it would pan out on other versions.

Oh, I got it. It wasn't as hard as I expected. 2 miners, 2 bashers... piece of cake.

For anyone who has the Genesis / Megadrive unique levels:

Present 16 - A trap is a trap: Save 98/100

Sunsoft 7 - Everyone turn left (Part Two): complete the level using ten miners or fewer
(EDIT: possible with only seven!!!)

At long last!  I've finally successfully did it on the PC version.

Thos who wants proof can look at the screenshots I made with DOSBox which tells you what happens from beginning to end.  (So if you want to figure it out yourself, you better not look!)

http://www.geocities.com/guestlevels/lemmings/taxing16_a.png
http://www.geocities.com/guestlevels/lemmings/taxing16_b.png
http://www.geocities.com/guestlevels/lemmings/taxing16_c.png
http://www.geocities.com/guestlevels/lemmings/taxing16_d.png

If you are brave enough to try, I strongly suggest holding down F11 during those critical points when you're building the crowd trapper.  This will effectively put the game in "slo-mo" and in effect helps increase your timing accuracy slightly.  Even so, prepare for a lot of screw-ups and retries (or maybe you'll be a much better player than I am...).

I've now also fully verified on the PC version the 100%, builders and floaters only, no direct drop solution for "M.C. Escher".  [aka the "modified challenge"]

Turns out you have like more than 1:40 minutes left, so time is definitely not an issue.

Again, the proof screenshot is at

http://www.geocities.com/guestlevels/lemmings/taxing18.png

And again, don't look if you don't want to spoil it for yourself.

Oh. I was thinking of a different way (on the M.C.Escher one). Now I'll have to try it to see if my way works too........

Well done!  I was always frustrated because I couldn't find a 100% solution to that level.  Now in the PC version, there are only 18 non-100%-able levels.

Here's the ultimate challenge:
Complete the whole Lemmings game, losing a total of only 75 lemmings.  I am pretty certain that this is possible in the PC DOS version.

Here's where the lemmings are lost:
Fun 3: Lose 3                                                 Fun 6: Lose 2
Fun 18: Lose 5                                               Tricky 15: Lose 3
Tricky 16: Lose 4                                            Tricky 17: Lose 2
Tricky 18: Lose 1                                            Tricky 23: Lose 7
Taxing 7: Lose 1                                             Taxing 19: Lose 5
Taxing 27: Lose 4                                           Taxing 28: Lose 17
Mayhem 2: Lose 1                                          Mayhem 5: Lose 4
Mayhem 10: Lose 4                                        Mayhem 19: Lose 3
Mayhem 26: Lose 5                                        Mayhem 29: Lose 4
                                     Total: Lose 75

You clearly haven't refined the method for that level.  I just tried on the PC version and only lose 4.  I believe if not for a stupid mistake (there was a single lemming in front of the basher who didn't climb) while executing on the PC version, I would've lost just 3.  (And in fact earlier in the SNES version when I first tried it out I did only lose 3).

I'll update you when I achieve "lose 3" on the PC version.  And I have to wonder, is lose 1 possible?

"lose 3" for tricky 23 has now been confirmed on the PC version.

In fact, a re-refinement of what I did could potentially allow for the achievement of "lose 2" I believe (but this awaits confirmation...)

"Lose 1" however still looks very elusive.  The input method is strongly against you on this one, and even if it cooperates I still can't tell whether it will actually help you prevent the 2 you lost from "lose 3".

Screenshot is available but this time only if you e-mail guestlevels 'at' yahoo.  For those who can't "lose 7", you are better served with hints and not a screenshot.  Those who already did "lose 7" really don't need any hints, "lose 3" really is just a simple refinement.

Actually, upon further thought it might not be as elusive as I think, but still looks doubtful.

I actually refined Conway's "Lose 10" solution using floaters to reduce the number to 7.  I should have known that I could have saved more with that climber trick from Havoc 5 in ONML! :-[

Good job for finding that! :thumbsup:

Edit:  I just played the level and got it down to 5, but I can't seem to get the climbers placed right to save all but 3.  Some of them keep turning around.

I was holding off saying it, but I have to say now I'm not sure what you had in mind when you referred to Havoc 5.  I used climbers, but I had trouble seeing how the use relates to Havoc 5.

I don't know how Conway did it, but my best guess would be that it looks like everyone must've missed something very simple and fundamental about the method.

I've just got it down to "lose 2" on the SNES (no, it didn't take 3 hours, I just wasn't on the computer for a while), and since things worked out exactly as it did on the PC as on the SNES when I got "lose 3", I'm sure "lose 2" can also be done on the PC.  I'll confirm later.

Whoo-hoo!  Now I've finally reach "lose 1" on the SNES!

The way I did it, this does throw in a second use for climbers, one that probably has something to do with LemSteven's comment on Havoc 5 (which I think I understand now--keep in mind I never played most of the ONML levels, since I don't have a copy of the game until very very recently).

I'm going to try the PC version right now and see......

I honestly don't know how I managed to save 70 in Tricky 23. I've just reread the solution I sent to LemSteven, and it simply won't work this time! >:(

I just successfully got 76/80, but I don't know exactly what I did differently.  I know how to get the first two climbers to work (which saves 75), but I don't know exactly how to make them work after that.  The one extra lemming that I saved was sheer luck -- I got somebody placed correctly, but I don't know which one it was.

Another problem that I'm having is poor mouse-keyboard coordination.  I keep pausing and unpausing with the keyboard while I'm assigning skills with the mouse, but sometimes I click the mouse too soon or too late and the skill doesn't get assigned.

I've just confirmed 78/80 on the PC version, with a screenshot available in e-mail.

Unfortunately, this is with the method that is supposed to get 79/80.  >:(  It is unclear at this point whether there is some subtle timing difference that will always cause at least one to "leak out" on the PC version with the method I'm using, or whether instead I screwed up on the attempt.  But it does seem to suggest that if 79/80 is possible on the PC version, it will involve some difficult pixel-precision for certain key players.  For example, the basher might need to bash the wall starting as close to it as possible (ie. right before it would've turned around).

I'll definitely try some more to see if 79/80 can be confirmed on the PC.  But I think I'd like a rest for now.

The method does work! B) I finally managed to confirm 79/80 on the PC version.

A screenshot is available, though it doesn't reveal much (I was rather excited and almost forgotten to do the screenshot, so cut me some slack.)  It does have enough to show that 79/80 will survive, but since I captured relatively late, it doesn't reveal at all the critical details.  Screenshot can be received in e-mail (guestlevels at the usual place).  I'm also willing to give hints and the like in e-mail to those who want to try for themselves on lose 3 and beyond.

As I was watching, at one point there was almost a leak.  And in fact for a moment it did leak, but fortunately the next stroke came just soon enough to unleak those 2.  (I'm sorry I'm trying to be deliberately unrevealing, I guess mostly for those who don't even know "lose 10" yet.)  Based on this observation, the conclusion is clear:  you have to bash as close to the wall as possible.  One pixel off can be enough to make the difference between lose 1 and lose 3.

So this is definitely (pun intended) "tricky" no doubt, indeed I think this is probably harder to execute than the 100% on Mary Poppin's Land.

--------------------

So as an update, the ultimate challenge has now gotten down to losing a total of 69 lemmings.

Update:  I just managed to save 77/80 on Taxing 27 - Call in the Bomb Squad. The solution requires all ten bridges as well as a perfectly timed bomber.

It is therefore possible to lose a total of only 68 lemmings.

Wow, just 3 lost on that level, that's pretty neat.

On another note, I did some experiment with Mayhem 26, both with the SNES version and also with the DOS version.

The results indicate that it should be possible to lose just 4 on that level.  I'm not in any hurry to confirm it (especially since it should be fairly obvious what you need to do and how it might be achieved), but once it's confirmed, it'll bring the total down to 67.

[Note to non-DOS Lemmings users:  the DOS version of Lemmings is one of the few versions that gives you 20 builders in this level, rather than the standard 10 this level is supposed to come with.  So don't waste your time if your version gives you just 10 builders.]

However, that said, I have just tested on the SNES and verified that even with just 10 builders, you can achieve lose 5.  Instead of using extra builds to delay, there is one key place where you can build just once to "seal up".  (That key build does need to be pixel-perfect however, due to the way builder collision is determined and some pesky overhead greenery.)  [Incidentally, you probably want to use this move for "lose 4" on the PC too.]  There's a little more to it than just that, but I'll leave the interested players to figure out for themselves.

When I have time I'll test it on the Amiga and PC versions and see what happens.  Unfortunately for the Mac, based on what Ahribar mentioned some time ago, there is a terrain difference in that version that results in what in effect is an extra, unintended obstacle.  So lose 5 is probably not possible in that version.

Just a quick update that "lose 5" is verified possible on the Amiga version which has 10 builders.

I'll try to verify the PC version at some later time, but I'm not in a hurry since you can do better anyway using the extra builders in the PC version.  But it's still a somewhat interesting challenge in the PC version I guess, to limit yourself to just 10 builders and lose just 5.

Aha!  Although I haven't quite gotten to lose 3 yet, this is no longer so unbelievable now that I realize this is just a backroute.  B)

[And what a fine addition it would've made to Ahribar's "backroutes remake" set......]

The Lose 3 solution is tricky to pull off (comparable in difficulty to the 100% solution on Taxing 16).  You need one blocker/bomber and 3 bridges to hold the crowd, a bomber to lower the start of the main bridge (so that the builder doesn't hit his head), and a blocker to turn the lemmings around toward the exit.

Here are a few hints (highlight them to read):

1.  Stack 3 bridges on one of the stairs to keep anybody from going right.
2.  In order to start the main bridge as low as possible, time a bomber so that he goes off right after he begins to fall off the left edge of the ground (This is by far the hardest part of the solution, as the bomber must be timed exactly right).
3.  From the bomber's hole, build 6 bridges left, then block (the builder cannot hit his head on the ceiling or the solution will likely fail).  Use the last bridge to reach the exit.

are there any HIDDEN maps in any of the lemmings series?

Well, we know there are none in the PC version of Lemmings and ONML, since you can use LemEdit to check the .dat files containing the levels.

Don't know about the other versions.  And let's not forget these games, including the original Lemmings, are ported to a ton of other systems, so who knows about those.

Mike would probably know about this.

I just replayed Mayhem 26, and I didn't see any way to lose 4 (it seems to me that you need two bombers to blast through one of the walls, unless "Guest" knows something that I don't).  I did get the total down to 67 on another level, though: I saved 96% (77/80) on Mayhem 29 -- Save Me.

This solution is confirmed in the PC version, but it exploits a bug allowing you to dig/bash through a small amount of steel.  It therefore will not work on any versions that don't allow this trick.

Hints:  If you've already saved 76/80, try bashing under one of the blockers near the entrance, either by using the "bash through the top of the steel" bug or by placing him on a bridge.  The lemmings must be spaced out in a way so that two of them are ahead of the others for those nasty builders/blockers at the end.

If you haven't figured out how to save 76/80 yet, there is a major hint near the bottom of this page:  http://www.kallex.de/lemmings/hints/imperfect-levels.html

Also, is anybody ever going to update that page?  We've already beaten many of the scores on it.

I guess I indeed know something that you don't.  Let's see how best to hint this one......

Small hint:  ironically, one of the "training" levels have something somewhat related to this

Bigger hint:  (highlight to read)

Send two lemmings down after the first bombing, and set the one in front to block at a particular location very very near the second bombing location.  If done right something interesting will happen, and amazingly it works on quite a few versions (PC, Amiga, SNES I've checked).

----------------

If this doesn't answer your question, maybe you're having trouble with another wall?  Although I didn't do the full route in the PC version to completion, I did verify that all the relevant bombings are doable.

I should add that in the event you completely give up, I do have a DOSBox screenshot that spells out exactly what to do with that wall.

Has anyone keep similar statistics on ONML levels?

I haven't played most of the ONML levels, unless you count the first 12 "tame" levels or so (I did those during the process of capturing the ONML music), and I think "tubular lemmings" from I forgot which rating.

I'm in particular interested in knowing which ONML levels currently do not have 100% solutions, and how many lost in the current best solution.

I don't know of any attempt to keep statistics for the ONML levels. There are certainly lots more than on the first Lemmings where no 100% solution is known, and probably lots more where it's impossible.

Take Crazy 12 off the list, I just got 100% on the PC version.  Fairly straightforward actually.

I'm not saying it isn't; I just don't have time right at the moment to look through them all and see which ones I can get 100% on. (I will have a go at this soon, though!)

Gah! I almost managed Crazy 18, but it winds up being ONE pixel off from what I need... Hmm, maybe there's another way, seems like there should be one...

Yes, I'm almost possible there's another way, working on it now...

Edit: Got it! Turned out to be rather straightforward.

Btw, my method that didn't work was going over the top... but the angle of the bubbles and the maximum height limit for builders makes it just barely impossible, even though you have just the right amount of tools to pull it off.  :-(

OK I see, so when you said "for which the best known solution does not save 100%", I guess what you meant was "for which my best known solution...".  ;)

Thanks anyhow, the list is useful enough, thanks, though I must say it's slightly shocking how many non-100% levels there are.  Though I did realize as I browse thru some of the levels that the ONML levels are far less generous in the ways of "extra" skills, so I guess the higher non-100% is expected.

There are several more levels that can be taken off of the list.  Since there are so many, I'll just list the best scores that I know of (100% if not listed):
Crazy 1: Save 96% (48/50)
Crazy 3: Save 96% (48/50)
Crazy 10: Save 98% (79/80)
Crazy 11: Save 50% (40/80)
Crazy 14: Save 96% (48/50)
Crazy 19: Save 98% (49/50)
Wild 5: Save 93% (75/80)
Wild 12: Save 98% (49/50)
Wild 13: Save 96% (77/80)
Wild 15: Save 94% (47/50)*
Wild 18: Save 97% (78/80)
Wicked 1: Save 98% (49/50)
Wicked 4: Save 98% (49/50)
Wicked 6: Save 98% (79/80)
Wicked 7: Save 93% (75/80)
Wicked 8: Save 92% (46/50)
Wicked 9: Save 96% (48/50)
Wicked 10: Save 96% (48/50)
Wicked 12: Save 97% (78/80)
Wicked 15: Save 92% (46/50)
Wicked 16: Save 83% (5/6)
Wicked 20: Save 98% (69/70)
Havoc 10: Save 52% (12/21)*
Havoc 13: Save 98% (79/80)
Havoc 15: Save 90% (9/10)
Havoc 17: Save 98% (79/80)*
Havoc 20: Save 88% (53/60)*

A "*" next to a score means that I've heard of it being done, but I haven't confirmed it.

This makes a total of 105 lemmings lost overall in ONML, many more than the 66 in the original.

Note that some of these scores take advantage of bugs in the PC version.

No; what I meant was "the best-known solution"; that should teach me to be careful about punctuation even on forums! In other words, the best-known solution to the level, not specifically the best known solution to the problem of saving as many as possible.

Anyway, that was just a starting point; LemSteven's list obviously supersedes this, except that he needs to tell us which solutions depend on bugs and what the best solution is that is guaranteed on any version. In particular, are there any solutions where 100% is only possible because of a bug?

All right, after an eternity, more profanities than I care to recount, and raising my blood pressure by like 20, I finally managed (ie. confirmed) this on the PC version:

Havoc 10:  Save 66% (14/21).

Here are the screenshots:

http://www.geocities.com/guestlevels/lemmings/havoc10_A.png
http://www.geocities.com/guestlevels/lemmings/havoc10_B.png
http://www.geocities.com/guestlevels/lemmings/havoc10_C.png
http://www.geocities.com/guestlevels/lemmings/havoc10_D.png

Be warn that this pushes the method to its extreme, so you cannot get a higher score unless you find a better way.  The bridge must be built at the very edge as shown or you'll lose one more.  The biggest havoc though is what you need to do to achieve the setup in the first screenshot--you must lose only 1 lemming to the traps.

Good luck, and don't be surprised if you only get 13/21 on your first successful try.  It took me hours and several 13/21s before I finally manage this.

--------------

Note to non-PC users:  this solution requires the ability to "instantaneously" change the release rate.  On the PC it is possible because you can change the release rate while the game is paused.  If this is not possible on your version of ONML, you might be forced to lose 1 or 2 more.

Well actually, one main reason the number is so much higher is because you are forced to lose 40 in Crazy 11.  If you discount that "anomaly" it's actually comparable to the 66.

Still, that's over only 80 levels (since Tame hardly counts) as opposed to 120.

I'm trying to remember which levels require bugs, myself.  I know that the 98% solution on Wicked 1 exploits a bug.  My personal 98% solution on Wicked 20 also exploits a bug, but it may be possible to get 98% on that level via another method.

I'm not sure, but I think the 100% solution for Havoc 2 exploits a bug.  Unless there is a better solution, the two diggers must be placed in a certain spot, and they go through a small amount of steel.  The 94% solution on Wild 15 also requires digging through a small amount of steel.

I believe that all of the others can be done without bugs, although some of them use backroutes, and a few are annoyingly hard to pull off.

I do want to emphasize that just because it uses a bug doesn't necessarily mean it won't work on non-PC versions, and at the same time, just because it doesn't use any bugs doesn't guarantee it'd work on every version either.

The former because some bugs may be common to all versions, the latter because sometimes subtle timing and terrain differences can alter the outcome.  I've definitely encountered both of these with some of the Lemmings 1 levels for example.  And Ahribar can definitely tell you all about Mac's Mayhem 26 when it comes to terrain differences.

That's true; and also, digging through the edge of steel is not necessarily a bug, but a terrain difference -- the object is not placed at the exact same location as the visible metal area. (Our investigations on Taxing 22 certainly confirm this!)

You can take that off the list now, I just got 100% on that level ("DON'T PANIC!") on the PC.  Not that bad actually.  It could work on other versions too depending on terrain layout.

Because it's nothing on the order of, say, Havoc 10, I don't feel sharing screenshots are necessary, although I do have them and can e-mail them.  I'll instead just give 2 hints:

1) It's a lower route solution.
2) Use your builders wisely.

Woohoo!  I've now successfully confirmed on the PC:

Crazy 1:  Save 98% (49/50)

It was a little crazy and ends up slightly unexpected, but ultimately turns out to be all right, certainly nowhere near Havoc-10 crazy.  Basically, whereas I'd hate to have to ever repeat again my feat on Havoc 10, I'm much more okay with repeating the feat here.

Here are 2 screenshots:

http://www.geocities.com/guestlevels/lemmings/crazy1_a.png
http://www.geocities.com/guestlevels/lemmings/crazy1_d.png

-----------------

Like Havoc 10, I made use of being able to change RR instantaneously (ie. while the game is paused), so beware non-PC version players.

-----------------

So the total is now down to 101.  Just save 2 more and we can bring the total down to double-digits......

And ta-da!  I found the 2 lemmings I needed in:

Wild 5: Save 96% (77/80)

There's really no need for either hints or screenshots, since I already talked about a fairly similar trick on one of the earlier challenges.  (But of course, as usual I do have screenshots available through you know how.)

Oh, and good news for non-PC users:  you don't need the ability to instantaneously change the release rate for this level.  That doesn't necessarily guarantee that the solution will work, but since I've seen manifestations of the general phenomena involved replicable in a few versions of Lemmings 1 (SNES, Amiga, PC), there's a good chance this can work with all versions of the game.  Just keep trying, since the easiest way to do this is to rely on "luck".

----------------------

So we're now at 99, though there are many levels I haven't got around to, so don't stop looking yet!  The lemmings need you!  ;P

You can now take that off the list too, I just got 100% on the PC version.

No, no screenshots or hints from me this time--this is even easier than the 100% in crazy 19.

OK, I've finally got a bit of free time to have a go at some of these on the Mac version.

I confirm 49/50 on Crazy 1; my method seems to be slightly different, as I finish with climber, floater, three blockers and just one digger left. (I'm afraid I can't provide screenshots, as my Mac doesn't have internet access.)

I'm not having much luck with 100% on Crazy 8, so please at least give me one clue: is it possible to cross the "tentacles" water object with only two bridges or not?

I've confirmed 100% on Crazy 19 -- hell, that was hard! I'm not sure whether I missed a much easier way to do it or whether it's a terrain difference that really does make it harder on the Mac version.......

:P haha i remember doing that level like that a while ago...:D

I don't know, but for questions like this, if I really need to I can figure it out myself by right-clicking on the picture on "The Lemmings Solution" to save the bitmap on my computer.

Then open it up in, say, MS Paint, zoom to 400% or so, and then move the mouse cursor to get the coordinates various locations and compute the distance.  Or if there's a bridge somewhere in the picture, do some cut-and-pastes to basically sketch out how many builders you'd need.

Probably not relevant here, but note that, at least on the PC version, bridges stretch differently depending on whether you're building to the left or to the right.  You can't stretch them as much when building to the left.

It is not possible to cross the water with two bridges, but it is possible to get up high enough to bash through the green stacks and reach the exit with only two bridges.  I'll tell you where the bridges go:

1:  Used with a digger to act as a "one-way" blocker to keep the lemmings from going left of the entrance.
2-4:  Used to get over the water.
5-6:  Used to get up to the "branch" on the green stacks to the left of the exit.
7:  Used to stop the last basher.  He turns around, but it is possible to turn him back toward the exit without a builder.

The solution is very similar to the screenshot on "Lemmings Solution" with a couple of changes.


Good job to "Guest" for the better solutions on Crazy 19, Wild 5, and Wicked 20.  I wish I could try them out now, but I am on vacation, so I can't play Lemmings until I get home.

Well, I'm making progress, though it's mostly on the easier ones.

I got 100% on all of Wild 1-11 (except 5 where of course it's impossible) and on Crazy 12, 13 and 20. Success on Crazy 8 still eludes me; and as for 18, I haven't a clue how it could be possible.

However, if anyone does want to give me a hint, please try to do so without revealing the entire solution........

The very far left side of a level acts as a wall.


Hopefully that is enough of a hint for one of the levels.

Actually you can just use two blockers to hold all the lemmings while one lemming builds left, if you build at the last possible pixel each time you can clear the left side of the platform with nine builders.  (Obviously he'll hit his head a few times.)  Then you just need to make the builder block at the top of his ninth staircase, blow up the left blocker and use your last builder to reach the top of the platform.  This worked for me in the Windows 95 version, but I haven't checked any other versions yet.

There are many differences between the Windows and DOS version of the game, so I wouldn't count on it being able to work in the DOS version.

Specifically, in the DOS version it seems you can't stretch your builders as far when building to the left, the build bricks needs to overlap by at least 2 pixels, not 1 as is the case when you build to the right:
XXXXXX
   XXXXXX

vs.

    XXXXXX
XXXXXX

But good job anyway on your Win95 lemmings accomplishment.  B)

Is this a typo?  At least from first glance, it would seem that one would far more likely get 100% in Havoc 17 ("Where Lemmings Dare") than Havoc 16 ("Scaling the Heights").  Especially considering RR of 80 on Havoc 16.

...well, in any case, I just got 100% on Havoc 17 (PC/DOS version).

I haven't tried Havoc 16 at all at this point.

Ok, update.  This is my first successful try of that level, lost 1:



I must say, how disappointing, what a blatant backroute.  Though from the point of view of lemmings challenge, such a backroute is of course good news especially since you are left with 2 unused miners.

And I went back to read some of the earlier posts and found LemSteven mentioned in another post about saving 100% on Havoc 16, so I guess it isn't a typo after all.

So my 100% on Havoc 17 has brought the total lemmings lost down to...I think 97 at this point.

I've now gotten 100% on that level.

So total lemmings lost down to 96.

Quite interesting how few Havoc levels (just 3!) aren't 100%-able, in marked contrast with the Wicked levels.

Now improved to save 98% (49/50).  Total lost = 95.

This is now also improved to 98% (49/50).  This barely works (but overall isn't too difficult to execute).  Total lost now down to 94.

I've just saved 100% on that level.  Total lost now down to 93.

Screenshots are available, as is the following hint (change font to read):

5 builders for the trailblazer and the rest for containing and releasing the crowd.  Location, location, location......

Turns out, thanks to the friendly RR, there is a second way to get 100% on Havoc 13, which rendered my hint somewhat obsolete.

I've now gotten 100% on that level too (it's no joke ;P), so total lost down to 92.

As usual, screenshots are available.  Here's a hint, well not so much a hint, just some info to prevent you from trying something that wouldn't work:

I did have to use a basher at the hill right before the exit, so don't bother trying to build your way over it.

Now improved to 94% (47/50).  Total lost down to 91.

Looks like LemSteven will have quite a bit of catching up to do after his vacation.  ;P

Not a challenge per se, but I just discovered that on the PC version, "Five Alive" (Wicked 16) can be completed without using any floaters or climbers.

Just curious whether that's the case with other versions of the game.

I tried the Amiga version and it works too, but perhaps slightly more difficult.  The problem is that on the Amiga version, the steel area to the right of the explosion actually extends further left than the way it looks.  So if the explosion is just a pixel to the right, the second lemming would probably not even be able to mine.

It's been fun to watch this race, but I'm going to have to drop out of it. I'm off on holiday in half an hour, and won't have access to the original Lemmings games (though I am taking Cheapo).

I wonder, guest, could you confirm 100% on Havoc 2 and 18? Those are the ones I find hardest to believe.......

Sure, I'll take a stab.

You'll still have e-mail access right?  (I think you said you would.)  I'll e-mail you about it when I'm done.  Tell me how subtle/direct you want my explanations to be.

Update:  I've verified 100% on Havoc 2.

Update: I've now also verified 100% on Havoc 18.

Thanks. Yes, I will still have e-mail access (as well as possibly occasionally having time to stop by here -- at the moment I'm overnighting at my aunt's house before flying tomorrow). The explanations can be as direct as you like; I won't have the opportunity to try to figure them out for myself, sadly. Best wishes, and good luck!

I've already confirmed 100% on Havoc 16, so it is not a typo.  It uses a very unobvious solution.  It uses the climber, both miners, and all of the bridges.  Hint: Try mining down from the left side of the exit.  Hint (Copy and change the font to read): Try mining down to the crowd from the left side of the exit, and use the other miner (along with a blocker) to keep the crowd from going into the swamp on the far right.  The solution requires pixel-perfect placement in a couple of spots.


Yep, I'll have to do a lot of catching up.  Good job once again for finding these solutions.

Whoops, apparently I didn't push my own method far enough.

So now Wicked 15 is improved to 96% (48/50), total lost down to 90.  This is definitely the maximum for that method, if not for the level itself.

Turns out my method for Wicked 15 is applicable elsewhere as well......


This has now been improved to lose 16 (80%, 64/80) on the PC.

Be warned, this is quite difficult.  The method from Wicked 15 is only a small part of the solution.  It changes the solution fundamentally from how you'd do "lose 17", so there're quite a few other things to work out, not to mention a few precision-moves (well, at least that's how I did it; maybe easier ways exist).

To give you an idea:  if you have about 4 to 5 more builders, it would be possible to lose just 13.  But unfortunately, you don't have that many builders.

Anyway, so total on the Lemmings challenge is now 65.

I finally succeeded!  B) ......


Now improved to lose 15 (81%, 65/80) on the PC!

And yes, I have been trying this since I last reported lose 16, so yeah, that's like 3 days, meaning took longer to achieve than my Havoc 10 record, so...yikes.  X_X

Almost every move in this solution has some precision or timing element to it.  Here's a hint on one of the easier (but no less important) moves (change font to read):

You can create a safe path under that trap near the exit with just a single bomber.

And so, total lemmings lost down to 64.  I highly doubt lose 14 is possible on this level but hey, feel free to prove me wrong.

Ok, here's an interesting challenge which I've confirmed on the PC/DOS version:

Wicked 6 – PoP TiL’ YoU DrOp: Save 98% (79/80) without using any bombers

And if you're wondering why I didn't manage 100%, well, thanks to some weird way the game handles the miner, the miner mining the way to the exit seems to inexplicably fall a bit farther out than everyone else, and thanks to the terrain near the exit, the miner's fall is fatal while the crowd's isn't.  >:( I'm still hoping though there's a way to fix this.

===============

I recall hearing that on the Windows version, the lemmings can build out of their initial locations and be gathered into a single place.  This does not work in the DOS version and has absolutely nothing to do with how I did the challenge above, so don't bother with that approach.

Maybe the miner is never considered a walker, and its maximum safe fall distance is 3 lower :P

Or something silly like that (maybe just 1 or 2 pixels different).

When experimentalizing with Havoc 5 I had the same problem in a special case.
Looking closer (WinLem) I saw that the feet of the miner are not at the level of the ground when doing a hit.
This also could be a reason.

I did a little more investigation, and sadly it looks like Shvegait might be right.

I changed the mining path slightly so that when the miner falls, it is not in the "hit" phase that geoo89 mentioned.

The miner animation in DOS is roughly like this:

1) miner's shovel strike ground, creating 2 more steps
2) then the miner "jumps" down to 1st step (I think that's what geoo89 refers to)
3) and then the miner walks down to the 2nd step.  
Then it repeats.

I adjusted where the miner starts mining, such that the fall occurs during phase 3 instead of phase 2.  So it should basically start falling at the same position as a normal walker from the crowd would; at least visually that's what it looks like.

And yet, the miner splatted while the walker survive.  The miner splat at the same altitude as where the walker lands, which further makes it appear that they both travelled the same number of pixels (62).

So Shvegait might be right, the same "bug" that gives us the usual falling distance of 63 seems not to apply to a miner.

And unfortunately my solution doesn't give much flexibility to lower where the exit-path miner starts mining.  :-(  What a wicked level!

YES!  I found a way to get around this!  B)

And so, finally:

Wicked 6 – PoP TiL’ YoU DrOp: Save 100%!

Ok, so the way to get around this.  It's funny, it's basically another miner glitch that fixes the problem.  O_o  (Note:  as of now, this has only been tested on the DOS version of ONML.)

This is the basis for the glitch that saved all the lemmings (no spoilers there, so go ahead and look):

http://www.geocities.com/guestlevels/lemmings/buildingonthinair_a.png
http://www.geocities.com/guestlevels/lemmings/buildingonthinair_b.png

So let me explain.  First of all, recall from the earlier post about the 3 phases a miner cycles through.  Anyway, it turns out that, if you assign a skill, say, a builder, to a miner who's in the midst of phase 1 (swinging the ax towards the ground), with good timing you can assign that skill immediately after the swinging hits the ground.

But here's the interesting part:  when he starts building he will start building on the step below, instead of the step where he is standing while swinging the ax.

Ok, so what, big deal.  Here's the catch:  suppose you've already reached the bottom so that there is no "next step below", then what?  As shown in the screenshot, you will still be allowed to build, so you end up building on thin air!  And you thought Cheapo's replay glitches were bad......

The best way to convince yourself that this works is to try it out on a level in DOS Lemmings, such as ONML Tame #8 (which is where I made the screenshots from).  Wait until the miner is about to execute the swing that would break through, then try to pause the game while in mid-swing.  Then press F7 to switch to a builder, and then unpause and simultaneously (or so it seems) assign the builder on the miner.  If done right you should end up with what the screenshot shows.

============

Spectacular as this is, this won't quite help on Wicked 6.  The builder's bricks would actually shift the falling point closer to the exit, which actually just kills everyone.

However, now consider that instead of assigning a builder to the miner, you assign a blocker to the miner.  Just like you can build on thin air, the game too, will allow you to assign the blocker at that situation.  But of course, a blocker standing on thin air will immediately turn into a faller, but nonetheless you can see on the skills toolbar that a blocker is consumed.  (Feel free to try this out on tame 8.)

And here's the kicker:  it turns out that when a blocker falls, the maximum falling distance is apparently same as a normal walker.  So by doing this seemingly pointless move, you can allow your (former) miner to survive the fall!

==============

To correctly apply this trick, you must make sure two things:

1) You must assign the blocker while the miner is in mid-swing. [ie., while in phase 1].  It wouldn't work in other phases of the miner.  (Or at least I haven't succeeded yet.)

2) There must be no "next step" in front of the miner, so that the blocker will immediately fall.  Otherwise it will just stay a blocker standing on that next step.

So you need to plan where you start mining very carefully.  For example, in Tame 8, suppose you build a single step and then mine from that step.  This seemingly minor change is enough to prevent you from doing building-on-thin-air, because condition #2 is violated when you shift the mining tunnel up by one pixel.  It helps to know that each time a miner strikes, it creates 2 new steps in front and will move down to the 2nd step before the next strike.  Each step is 2 pixels wide and 1 pixel tall.  The trick requires that there be no "1st step" created by the final swing you made.

=========

Anyway, so total lemmings lost on ONML is down to 89.  Also, the total number of non-100%-able levels in DOS ONML has now gone down to 20, which until a month or so ago was thought to be the number of non-100%-able levels in DOS Lemmings.

Now improved to 101%.  Just kidding!  ;P

No, just a minor update:  I found a second 100% solution on Havoc 17, which doesn't use direct-drop unlike the first 100% solution I found.

Unfortunately this was much harder to execute than expected.  Thanks to the overzealous use of the grass traps near the exit area, my attempt to dig down a little and then mine towards the exit turns out to be much more aggravating than I ever imagined.  Thanks to the weird way the game handles the miner, the miner doesn't always seem to fall at the exact same place as the crowd.  It seems you need to mine and dig at pixel-precise locations to get an outcome where both the miner and the crowd can fall safely to the exit, instead of one or the other falling into those #@*$&#@$ grass traps (and I used to thought those lizards were annoying.......).

I've verified on the PC and Amiga that it's possible to do the above using only a total of 4 builders.

The level where I save the builder is Tame 14 ("Get a little extra help").  It does however use a minor glitch involving a climber, which is why I also verified it on the Amiga to see if it has the same behavior (not surprisingly, it does).  It won't work in Cheapo though.

Clarification:  the concept behind the solution does not really use any glitches.  What happens is that, as it turns out, due to the particular pixels of the terrain, the aforementioned minor glitch is needed for the solution to work as hoped.  A single-pixel difference would have been enough to avoid needing the glitch.

I was looking over Mayhem 29 again and it appears that the following might be possible (but currently unconfirmed, unfortunately):

Mayhem 29:  lose 4 without using any glitches involving digging or bashing away steel ???

The main reason I mention this is that, in many versions of Lemmings including the SNES, Amiga and Windows version, but unlike the DOS version, the bottom of the level has a deep layer of water.  Deep enough such that only about 6 pixels of the starting steel platform is above water.  I think that water could significantly impact the use of the "Go West" route critical for the lose 3, in which case it's nice to have a fallback on the watery versions.  The glitch-free lose-4 here is the fallback.  It's conceptually quite straightforward for the most part.

Of course, the real pain as usual is towards the end, where you basically rely on "luck" and 2 spare builders in hoping that you achieve enough separation between the leader and the lemming behind it, so that the very last ramp-blocker can be ready in time without losing anyone in the crowd.  That is indeed the unconfirmed portion of the potential solution.  I actually had something that looked promising, and then towards the end I screwed up by mistakenly selecting the blocker rather than the intended builder--talk about "worse way to lose".  (I'm kinda prone to this since I habitually use the keyboard to switch between skills, and unfortunately the blocker is next to the builder on the keyboard.)

It'd be useful if someone knows or can figure out how far you need to build out before the last blocker becomes functional.  I'm hoping I don't need to build more than once there.

In the meanwhile I better get back to the music stuff before Ahribar brings that up yet again.  ;)

Actually, now that I think of it, by making good use of the release rate during the beginning, it should be possible towards the end to create a setup where the leader of the crowd and the 3 lemmings behind him are each spaced the maximum distance apart as dictated by the minimum RR of 50.  Then the use of the 2 spare builders will give you a separation equal to 3 units of RR-50 separation.  I think that should be enough to ensure that the last ramp-blocker will be ready before anyone catches up.

So still unconfirmed, but at least it looks much more approachable.  If I'm going to confirm this I think I'll do it in the Amiga for good measure (since after all, a better solution exists in the waterless DOS version anyway--and okay, because the Amiga emulator has savestates).

I'll add that, if this is indeed confirmed possible, then I'm very surprised it hasn't been confirmed much earlier, since as I said, not only is it glitch-free, but it is for the most part pretty straightforward.

Amazingly, I found a better way!

This would've been unthinkable a month ago, but I've now improved this to......

Havoc 10: save 76% (16/21)!

The reason for this new success?  For the first time, a method (not involving the builder which of course you can't waste) has been found to actually contain the crowd!

http://www.geocities.com/guestlevels/lemmings/havoc10_thetrick_b.png

This undoubtedly needs some serious explanation.  It makes use of a glitch involving, once again, the miner.  In fact, this glitch bears a slight relation to the miner glitch/technique I used back in my 100% solution for wicked 6.

Don't read the next post if you want to discover the glitch for yourself, although my guess is you'd rather just read it.

<breaking post here into 2 to get around the 5500-character limit>

<continue on from above>

First, refresh your memory with this picture, which I posted when discussing the glitch/technique used for the 100% solution of wicked 6.

Recall that, back then, my explanation was that you can start building on thin air if you turn the miner into a builder immediately after the mining finishes the ax-strike but before he starts moving forward.  I then explained that if you turn the miner to a blocker instead, he will fall down.

But in fact, even back when I tried to create that picture of "building on thin air" on Tame 8, one of my tries (with a blocker) actually ended up looking more like this even weirder situation:

http://www.geocities.com/guestlevels/lemmings/stopminingbeforebreakthru.png

Wow, how did that happen?  Back then I merely ignored it (it certainly didn't help wicked 6), but recently I re-experiment with it again, and have now come to the conclusion that this is what's happening:

It seems that the game, at least the PC version (though I wouldn't be surprised if it happens on other versions), miscalculates the y position of a lemming during certain animation frames of the mining animation.  In particular, observations led me to believe that, from the moment the miner's ax starts swinging forward/downwards, the game already places the miner's position to be 1 pixel lower than the step it was standing on as it swings the ax.

As a result, even before it actually mined thru the terrain, there's a short moment where its feet is already at the bottom row of pixels of the floor.  In other words, it is really standing on thin air, even though it doesn't look like it.  And so if at that moment you turn it into a blocker, it would fall down.  Thus the screenshot above.  This is also possibly why the trick used for wicked 6 worked so well.  Had this glitch been absent, it's likely that the blocker would not be able to fall even in wicked 6.

Anyway, again I used Tame 8 (Dangerzone) for the screenshot above, I encourage you to try replicating it.  Try to turn the miner to a blocker when the ax is about to do the forward strike that would've broken through.  After a few tries you should hopefully end up with the same result.

-------------------

Now, Havoc 10 doesn't have blockers.  And diggers are not a suitable substitute, since it turns out that each time a digger digs down it actually removes 2 rows of pixels rather than 1 (a topic for some other time), so turning it into a digger will end up breaking thru the terrain despite the miner's unusual vertical position.

But there's a most unusual substitute that serves the purpose here:  exploders!  You heard me right.  Here's the kicker:  you know how, when the countdown reaches 0, if the lemming isn't already falling, it first transitions to an "oh-no-er" before it actually explodes?  Now, anyone who observes a nuking closely should know that oh-no-ers do fall when the ground underneath its feet are removed.

And so this is the applicable trick for Havoc 10:  you timed the exploder while it is mining, so that it turns into the oh-no-er at the same moment you would want to turn the miner into a blocker above.  Then because he turns into the oh-no-er, the mining will stop.  But then because of the miscalculation of the miner's y position, when he turns into an oh-no-er, he will be standing on thin air, and so he'll fall.  In fact, he'll be gone off the bottom of the level before the explosion ever happens.  The result is this:

http://www.geocities.com/guestlevels/lemmings/havoc10_thetrick_a.png

Wicked, isn't it?  Now, be warned that replicating this screenshot is much harder than replicating the Tame 8 screenshot, and not just because timing bombers are more difficult.  The real issue is that you have to time it at such a precise moment, that no part of the miner's ax-swing has removed any terrain yet.  It took me about half an hour of continuous tries to get this screenshot.  Too early and the miner will not fall thru the floor.  Too late and the miner will either completely break thru first, or will partially break the top 3 rows or so of pixels ahead, which is still bad since it destroys the crowd-containing capability.  The correct timing is about after 2 swings, and just when the 3rd swing is starting (starting meaning the miner starts to throw the ax backwards).

--------------------

Now, all these is just to explain the glitch.  The actual solution is of course a bit more involved.  (For one thing, in the actual solution you start mining a bit more to the right.)  And because you effectively "waste" one exploder skill in applying the glitch, you end up having to sacrifice more lemmings to the traps than the previous 14/21 solution.  But in the end you will create a trap-free path for the crowd, and clearly the ability to contain the crowd is a winner here.  (How to release the crowd will be left as an exercise for the reader.)  More detailed screenshots are available upon request.

<still too long, another break>

<continue from above>

Another thing I want to mention is that, with this method, there is a conceivable possibility (but not even remotely verified) to achieve 17/21.  But it does require some extremely tight timing to hopefully (wishfully?) work itself out, and without savestates or a way to slow the game down a lot, I just don't have the patience now to pursue a possibility that might end up impossible.

Anyhow, the ONML challenge total lemmings lost is now down to 87, for those who still keeps tally.

Oh, some of you are probably wondering, why this crazy miner glitch?  Why not just mine a few strokes and then explode the miner normally?

Well, refer back to an earlier screenshot from the inferior 14/21 solution to Havoc 10:

http://www.geocities.com/guestlevels/lemmings/havoc10_A.png

You can clearly see that there's no way to get the bomber's explosion area low enough to trap the crowd without breaking thru the floor.

Another glitch worth pointing out that is used in the 16/21 solution, is that it seems if you have an 1-pixel overhang at the very top of a wall like this:

XX
X
X
X
X
X
X
X

as you would encounter during my solution to Havoc 10, a climber will be able to climb to the top despite that one-pixel overhang.  This is even true in the Amiga version.  This is the climber glitch I was referring to back at this improvement of one of Ahribar's challenge.  Some of you might also have seen something similar when doing the 100% solution for "Cascade" in Tricky.  (At any rate that's when I first remember seeing this climber glitch.)

With a few starting moves slightly rearranged, 17/21 has now been verified, so:

Havoc 10:  save 80% (17/21)  B)

Timing is still somewhat tricky, but it's certainly not any worse than the timing in the old 14/21 solution.

This brings the total down to 86.

Two months ago, none of us would have even dreamed that was possible!  Well done! :thumbsup:

I am still working on the 100% solution on Wicked 6.  I've been able to save 98% for a long time, but I still need to work to get the left lemmings down without using any bombers.  I actually run into the same miner bug that Guest had problems with in my 98% solution!  I always solved it by getting somebody to fall down to the exit before the miner does.  He would build a bridge so that the miner wouldn't die.  Unfortunately, this builder ended up going over the exit, so I had to use many more builders to make sure everybody got turned around. I suppose this tactic doesn't work with the 100% solution because it requires more builders.

I actually haven't been playing Lemmings or ONML much recently.  I'm currently playing through The Lemmings Chronicles, looking for backroutes and alternate solutions for the levels.

One of the most interesting backroutes that I found actually qualifies as a challenge for those who have this game:
On Classic Level 28, save every lemming without using the spades hidden in the large wall.


BTW, does anybody have any high scores in Lemmings 2, Lemmings 3D, or Lemmings Revolution?  If not, I can post my best scores on those, too.

Hmm...actually it might, but it depends on how many more builders you need to get your method to work.

The thing is, applying the blocker trick I used for the 100% do have its own cost of builders, because the trick requires the miner to be at a certain phase of its animation when you apply the blocker.  This in turn requires you to use a bunch of builders to get the correct, desired mining path and starting mining position.  It's possible that maybe the same amount of builders is enough to implement your idea instead.  I just never really tried what you said because it sounds rather difficult and I didn't know how many build bricks you'd need to make the fall safe for the miner.

I could tell you though that my 100% solution uses up every single skill.  For the left side, I gradually reduced the amount of builders needed (because I needed to accomodate the right side as noted above), and so the final solution uses just (highlight to read) 2 miners, 1 blocker and 3 builders for the left.

I have some scores for Lemming 2, but I don't think I ever really played thru every single level in that game, though I did play multiple versions (ie. for different systems) of the game.

For the DOS and Amiga versions, here are the non-100% scores that I remember off top my head:

Classic 5 (The Magnificent Severn): lose 1
Classic 7 (So close but so far away): lose 1
Classic 8 (The Secret of LEMH): lose 1*
Sports 1 (Ceci n'est pas une pipe):  lose 2
Polar 7 (Snowed In!): lose 2
Highland 10 (EAT MY SHRAPNEL !!): lose 1

Here are some notable 100% levels:

Classic 4 (Tension Sheet, Good Idea)
Medieval 3 (ALL IN A KNIGHTS WORK!!)
Sports 6 (Double Trouble)
Space 2 (Perpetual Motion)

*Classic 8 (The Secret of LEMH) is also of note because on both the SNES and the Sega Genesis versions of the level (which is identical to the DOS/Amiga version), I was able to save 100%.  But in doing so I needed the ability to use the "have cursor track lemming" feature (it's like the right-click select in Cheapo), which seems to be absent in the DOS/Amiga version.

That being said, thru massive use of savestates I once did manage to achieve 100% on that level on the Amiga despite the lack of the track-lemming feature, but as it's running on an emulator I don't know what to make of it.  In any case, basically 100% is possible if you manage to get a whole crowd of lemmings to dig very very very close to each other.  If I have the patience I might try it on the DOS version some day.

The "lose 1" in Classic 7 uses an outrageous glitch (no exploders by the way!).  Actually it really isn't a glitch (Mike certainly asserted that it isn't)......more an abuse of an intended feature.

In general the word "challenge" doesn't fit with Lemmings 2 levels, ;P until maybe if you start restricting yourself to a subset of the skills given.

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I would try the other games if I can get hold of a copy and if it would run on Windows XP.  I've heard many problems people have in getting Lemmings Chronicles and Lemmings 3D to run for example.

These aren't my scores, but a walkthrough I've read claims 100% on "Magnificent Severn" and "Eat My Shrapnel". Make of that what you will.

Lemmings 2 is quite plagued by differences amongst the various versions, perhaps more so than Lemmings 1.

In the Sega Genesis/Megadrive, "Eat My Shrapnel" can be done 100% because the wall that you normally have to bomb thru does not reach all the way to the top, so it is possible for a lemming to go over the wall instead in that version.

I'm less sure about the Magnificent Severn.  Perhaps it was talking about the SNES version?  (Most of the levels are altered in the SNES version, generally becoming easier.)

I went back to GameFAQs and see that indeed someone recently have contributed a new solution for that level that supposedly saves everyone.

But I suspect again that this might be a Genesis-only solution, since there's a part about walking on top of the ceiling.  Given how "Eat My Shrapnel" also suffered from something similar on the Genesis version, I don't think the same solution would work on the DOS/Amiga.  But I guess I could try it when I have time.

Which brings up another question (thanks for explaining about those solutions, btw) -- which levels on Lemmings 1 and ONML seem to be 100%able in some versions but not others? Offhand I can only think of Taxing 6 and Wicked 6, of the ones you've discussed in this topic, but you're the one that's done most of the solutions, so you will probably remember better than me.......

Just when you think there couldn't possibly be more improvements:


Now improved to lose 3 (72/75, or 96%).

The basic concept of the solution is similar to lose 4.  But, in order to get the landing place ready more quickly, yet another glitch is needed.  A build-on-thin-air type of glitch as it turns out.  (But before your imagination goes wild, no, you cannot turn falling or floating lemmings directly to builders under any circumstances as far as I know, so that's not it.)

Generally, I disclose all glitches used.  I will still do so here, but for those who actually wants to figure out what it is by themselves, here's a hint instead:

Climbers apparently always transition to walkers when they finish climbing.

For a more thorough disclosure of the glitch, see

http://www.geocities.com/guestlevels/lemmings/mayhem10.txt

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The solution is still tricky though even after you know what the glitch is.  And in fact there's another technique (this one not a glitch) involved, which provides a way to effectively "speed up" the building so the landing place is ready sooner.  That technique alone though is apparently insufficient, hence the use of the above glitch together with the technique.  Details/screenshots/walkthrough of the solution available upon request.

This brings the total down to 63 for Lemmings 1.

Well, actually, I've mostly concentrated on improving the scores reported by LemSteven, so there are a large swath of 100% solutions I haven't even bothered trying seeing that LemSteven have gotten it.

And of course, there are many versions of Lemmings out there.  I've only played mostly on the PC version, so I'm not really yet authoratative when it comes to other versions of the game.

Off top of my head, for Lemmings 1 I'm fairly positive Taxing 6 is the only one that's 100%-able on the PC but does not appear to work on the SNES (timing differences).  I've also heard though that on the Sega Genesis (or is it Game Gear) version, Tricky 23 can be 100% because the pit is less deep, allowing you just build directly out of it.

Wicked 6 still remains an open question, so I disagree with your assessment above at this point.  First of all, the "glitch" might not be unique to the PC version.  Second of all, LemSteven might have possibly another way to handle the right side of the level without using the glitch that I used.

If I remember correctly, none of my 100% solutions I found in ONML require any sort of glitches/weirdness, except Wicked 6 (though Wicked 20's 100% does technically dig away a little bit of steel, but not for the sake of getting rid of the steel per se.)  So barring some unknown timing differences, they should work elsewhere too.  And timing differences should only affect (if at all) wild 12 and/or havoc 17.

That's all I really remember right now.

Thanks :D though that wasn't meant to be an "assessment" as such..... just pointing out that it remains unconfirmed; whereas many of your solutions you can know without testing that they should work on all versions. I'll test those two on the Mac (and Genesis Tricky 23, since you mentioned it) as soon as I get home..... which won't be for a while :P

Well, you had heard the Taxing 6 solution from LemSteven.  Does this mean you want me to e-mail you the 100% solution for Wicked 6?

By the way, when you get around to confirming stuff on the Mac, it would be cool if you can check whether that crazy glitch I used for Havoc 10 works on the Mac.

I don't need you to actually confirm 17/21 on the Mac, just the glitch itself.  Basically check and see if you can duplicate this screenshot I posted earlier, from Tame 8:

http://www.geocities.com/guestlevels/lemmings/stopminingbeforebreakthru.png

That is just easy.

But I don't think you have a Mac, do you?

Maybe; I'll decide at the time. :P If I can't find it on my own, probably.

Actually, it just occurred to me today that there are potentially two ways to do "lose 4".  So to clarify, the one I had in mind when I said "similar to lose 4" is the lose 4 solution that uses an exploder.  The other potential lose 4 solution does not use exploders, nor can it be adapted to a lose 3 solution as far as I can tell.

Of course!  (Runs upstairs and figures out the "Lose 1" in Classic 7 within ten minutes.)  Why didn't I think of that earlier?!

I also just figured out how to get the 100% on Space 2.  I've known about the other notable 100% solutions for a while now.

100% on Classic 8 appears to be much more elusive (at least in the PC/DOS version).  It would seem possible with the skills given, but I can't get it to work.  I make the first lemming a climber+floater, and the next nine climbers.  The first guy goes ahead and tackles the second half of the level.  The second climber digs slightly more than halfway across the wall.  The next five dig down to obliterate the left half of the wall, up to where the first digger started; all of them eventually hit steel.  The rest of the climbers dig on the right side of the wall, past where the first digger started.  I also use diggers to slow the next two guys coming from the entrance, as they would otherwise turn around.

The problem is that the five diggers that hit the steel will continue to climb up the rest of the wall, and fall too far off the right side of the wall.  They therefore must dig on the far right side of the wall, but there are already lemmings digging there. Lemmings 2 doesn't seem to like it when you try to assign two of the same skill real close to each other, and the lemming will simply not perform the action.  As a result, a couple of lemmings tend to fall too far off the wall because I can't get them to dig.  If I had two more floaters, this problem would easily be solved.

If I could get everybody digging correctly, I would get the lowest digger (the first one assigned) to mine after getting sufficiently below the steel to prevent the walkers from walking back to the left.  Unfortunately, I cannot do this until all of the climbers are past him, otherwise they will hit the wall, turn back, and be lost.

So for now, I still haven't found a way to save 100% on Classic 8.

Yep, that's the problem.  I'm going to have to review the Amiga solution and see.

I think the basic problem is that the cursor always highlights someone that's doing something, and unlike Lemmings 1 there is no "hold right mouse button to select walkers" feature, so it keeps trying to assign the skill to the existing diggers instead of the walker.

The only way around it would be to place the cursor really carefully so that it selects only the walker, most likely via the edge portion of the cursor square.  That might be how I managed to get it to work in the Amiga.  I guess I'll review it again later today (thank god for savestates).

Well, reviewing my Amiga savestates wasn't too illuminating.  But thru experimentation on the Amiga, I did now come up with a systematic way, different from the random luck that prevailed on the Amiga savestates,  to deal with the problem.  In fact, it is so effectively that I think you can easily squeeze more than 10 diggers in the space provided.  It is also fairly simple, so I don't know why I didn't think to try it earlier.  What I said above still applies by the way.

But this is only the Amiga emulator, so I still need to try it on DOS and see.

Hmm...well, it kinda works in the DOS version too, but unfortunately not as effective as squeezing more than 10 diggers in.  In fact, I could barely do 7, which fortunately I think is still good enough for the 100% solution.

It is certainly much more difficult on the DOS version, partly because the animation in general seems to go noticeably faster than the Amiga version.  One critical element to my method requires you to basically step through the motions frame-by-frame, in order to turn the next walker into a digger as soon as the game allows.  The DOS version's faster speed makes this much more error-prone.

Also, even if your reflexes and timing are perfect so that you can step thru the motions frame-by-frame continuously and at ease, it seems that in the DOS version, the way the cursor is handled still doesn't allow you to squeeze the lemmings as close together as the Amiga could.  I think you could get maybe a minimum of 3-4 pixels going from one digger to the next [eg. 3 meaning if one digger's at (x,y), the next one's at (x+3,y)].

Because of this difficulty and the lack of savestates, I decided to, instead of going for the full solution, to do a test to see if my method works (and how well it does).  That alone still took me nearly an hour X_X, but here are the results:

http://www.geocities.com/guestlevels/lemmings/classic8_test_a.png
http://www.geocities.com/guestlevels/lemmings/classic8_test_b.png
http://www.geocities.com/guestlevels/lemmings/classic8_test_c.png

The screenshots demonstrate that squeezing 7 in is possible, and is possibly the best you can do.  Although I did make a slight mishap somewhere, so I can't completely rule out squeezing 8 in, but it's doubtful to say the best.  7 if I recall correctly is still enough for 100% though, if you do the rest of the level correctly.  (On that note, there are some slight differences between how I did it and how LemSteven's doing it.)

So while I still haven't succeeded, it at least looks plausible on the DOS version, but clearly it will be very difficult and frustrating.

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Oh, the method.  It's nothing really.  The diggers are placed from left to right.  Each time you place a digger, pause the game and move the cursor to the right pixel-by-pixel until the cursor just stop highlighting the current digger.  Then do the frame-by-frame until the next lemming walks close enough to "activate" the cursor, then immediately assign him the digger.  Repeat.  Note that if done correctly, all lemmings should end up starting digging at effectively the same altitude.

This is naturally the best you can squeeze everyone together, barring some unknown glitches/features.  A reminder that unlike Lemmings 1, in Lemmings 2, you can assign skills while the game is paused, but the game immediately unpause when you do that or actually, whenever you click the mouse anywhere.

Well, here's my closest attempt so far at 100% on classic 8:

http://www.geocities.com/guestlevels/lemmings/
classic8_ifonlyididntscrewup.png

The sad thing is, it would've been a successful 100% attempt, except I later screwed up something stupid with the trailblazer (it hit metal while digging). X_X

But this is enough to convince me that 100% on DOS Classic 8 is definitely well within reach, and although the work-week has begun again, maybe at the upcoming weekend (or sooner) I'll try again.  It seems that with sufficient practice, doing the frame-by-frame thing is no longer as difficult as it once seems.

I know the 2 diggers that ended up on the top right corner of the wall look a little suspicious.  I cannot explain why it was able to climb thru.  Maybe just like a 1-pixel overhang does not matter in Lemmings 1, a small amount of overhang does not stop climbers in Lemmings 2.  I certainly didn't plan it that way, it was more a mishap but it apparently works out anyway.  Try it yourself if you don't believe me.

Tip:  the way to do frame-by-frame is basically as follows:  pause the game, click somewhere (possibly on a lemming if you want to assign skill) to unpause, then immediately press "P" to re-pause the game again.  With sufficient practice to time the click and the "P", you will repause the game exactly 1 frame later.  You basically press "P" almost simultaneously with the click.

Ugh, the ;P is the capital letter p.  I pressed "post" when I meant "preview".

Oh, and here's a clickable URL:

http://www.geocities.com/guestlevels/lemmings/classic8_ifonlyididntscrewup.png

I got it! B) :party:

I made a few slight changes to my method on Classic 8 and managed to save 100% on the first try!

Here's my detailed solution (highlight to read)

1.  Make the first ten lemmings climbers
2.  Make the first guy dig through the left side of the wall.
3.  The second guy digs slightly more than halfway across the wall.
4.  The thrid, fourth, and fifth guys dig from left to right to obliterate the left half of the wall.
5.  Make the sixth guy float.  He will be the trailblazer.
6.  The first non-climber digs twice on the steel to slow him down.
7.  The rest of the climbers all dig on the right half of the wall.
8.   After the diggers on the left hit steel, they must also dig on the right side of the wall (this is the tough part).
9.  Make sure the trailblazer bashes through the dark brown wall.
10.  Make the lowest digger bash, not mine, after all of the climbers are past him.
11.  Make the trailblazer dig and mine to the exit.
12.  Build a bridge to get up the large "step."

In the old solution, I made the first lemming the trailblazer and I made the lowest digger mine instead of bash.  This gave him less time to finish mining before the diggers started catching him and turning around.  To fix this problem, I placed this particular digger farther to the right, which subsequentially gave me less space in which to bunch up the diggers.

By making the sixth lemming the trailblazer instead of the first, I created a larger vertical gap between the lowest digger and the ones on the right side of the wall. Furthermore, a basher moves horizontally faster than a miner, so that bought me even more time.  As a result, I could place the lowest digger farther left, thus providing more space to place the diggers on the right.

Good job!  :thumbsup:  Certainly save me from having to retry that level again.  ;)

Of course, all the changes to your solution is exactly what I meant when I said earlier:



Actually, one thing that somewhat surprises me is you said you sent all 10 climbers up.  This would seem to imply that you have 8 diggers squeezed together at the right side of the wall.  While I won't rule that out as impossible, it certainly is somewhat surprising to me that it could be done.  (A DOSBox vs. real DOS difference?  Hope not.)

In my solution, as my various screenshots have shown, I sent only 9 climbers up, leaving 7 for the right side of the wall.  You can delay the 10th and 11th lemmings sufficiently by making the 11th dig once and the 10th dig 2 or 3 times.

Of course, to do that, you probably also want the lemming who dig down the left edge of the wall to start digging as soon as he finishes climbing (if done right, he will be located basically with the left edge of the wall at the center of his feet/body).

That's correct.  I did manage to get 8 diggers on the right side of the wall.  I actually didn't find it too difficult to do, either.  I think a couple more may have even been possible, because I didn't quite get everybody digging as close together as I could have.  This does not surprise me, though, because I was able to fit 6 diggers in a smaller space using my old method.

BTW, I do run Lemmings in real DOS (In fact, I had never heard of DOSBox until I started reading this forum).  It's still running on the same machine that I first played it on ten years ago.

Oh ok.  That sounds kinda similar to the Amiga emulator, where I think I said you can probably squeeze more than 10 diggers.

I'm less concerned about this level since I've shown that it should be doable on DOSBox even with only 7 diggers on the right.  But it does make me a little nervous about how reliable my results for other levels are, in particular the timing sensitive Sports 1.  (Though at least I was able to achieve the same score on that level on both DOSBox and Amiga, despite having to use different solutions in each.)

Medieval 3 and Space 2 are both doable with 100%.
Since this thread calls "Lemmings Challenges" I challenge you to do that :P
I have to say, Space 2 is really tough.
(If you don't want to try, tell me and I'll release my screenshot and descriptions here.)
Also, I found a neat backdoor for Outdoor 7 using none of the shimmiers, no floater and only 3 of the jumpers (and some of the other skills).
Maybe that is a nice challenge for you? ;)

Um, I challenge you to read before you post?  ;P

It looks like it went to the 2nd-to-last page, but in the post where I first listed my Lem2 scores, I did mention Medieval 3 and Space 2 already.


Not really.  Except maybe on the Amiga [emulator], where time seems to go quite a bit faster, making it much more likely for you to run out of time if not careful.


I'll take a look when I have the chance.

Oops...reading your post again now (I had read the complete thread. Admirable work you acieved. :)) I know what was my abolutely stupid mistake: I read "notable" as "not able" (doable). X_X
Sorry. However, my solution for Space2 requires all skills (except the bomber of course) and pixel precision at some places.

I got L2 to work 3 days ago...old memories. ;)

Just when you thought this is all but dead......

This challenge has only been verified on SNES Lemmings so far.  However, it doesn't use any tricks that isn't already present in at least the PC and the Amiga version, and I've checked that the steel areas appear to be located identically on the PC version (and I believe the Amiga too but I should re-check) as in the SNES version, so it should work on those versions too.  I'll verify them later in the future.  Time-wise, I have 28 seconds left on the clock on the SNES (and the crowd can be released a little sooner for more time left), and the SNES's game speed appears to be similar to the Amiga (and SNES also has 100 lemmings like the Amiga), so hopefully you shouldn't run out of time in any version.  (There are no radical changes with release rate so that's not an issue either.)

the challenge:

Mayhem 29:  lose 3 without building to the west from the starting platform

Although this doesn't break any record score-wise on the PC, this is noteworthy since for the first time, it allows for a lose-3 solution on other versions.  If you recall, the PC version lacks the water, and the lack of water is critical in enabling the currently known lose 3 route.

This new solution still requires digging through steel though (elsewhere, of course), which is one reason why it's not possible to combine the two different tricks on the PC to get lose 2 (the other being that I think you'd run out of builders anyhow).

Definitely a very tricky solution to conceive of, and somewhat tricky to execute as well.  To give you an idea, you need to have at least 4 builders + 1 digger left to handle the area near the exit (and it's probably not what you have in mind, whatever it is you're thinking  ;P).  This means you can only use a total of 9 builders to deal with the starting platform, since you need 1 builder to build to the column from the left edge of the top platform on the starting screen, and another builder to break the fall when you dig down from the column.

You need at least 7 builders (4 to the right then 3 to the left) to build to the top platform on the start screen.  You also need one builder in order to be able to free (via bashing) a blocker used to contain the crowd while you're building 4 times to the right from the starting platform.  I'll leave it to you to puzzle over how to deal with the crowd after that point with just 1 builder spare-able for the purpose, as well as what to do near the exit area that somehow allows you to use one less blocker than usual.  ;)

Yet another challenge.  The score still stays the same though.

Mayhem 2:  lose 1 without using any bombers

This has been almost verified on the PC.  By "almost", I mean I have separately verified the "lose 1" and the "no bomber" parts, but I just haven't yet gotten a successful run with both together because, well, because I'm human.  But other than that it's practically as good as verified.  I've also verified the "no bomer" part on the SNES, and since the terrain is identical, it should also be doable on the SNES.  I haven't tried it on the Amiga, but previous experience indicates that, chances are very good you'll be able to do it there too.

Yes, a new glitch is involved.  No, not a totally cheap one, more like that miner glitch on Havoc 10 in terms of oddness.  Normally, I will disclose glitches used (after all, disclosure makes it easier for you to believe me, especially for something like this), but once in a while I do want to reserve some for future levels or what-not, so in this case, I unfortunately will not discuss the glitch for now.  (Don't worry, that'll change eventually.)  Perhaps the fact that it does not allow 100% might tell you something about it.

Happily, this completes my candidate list for my own Lemmings challenge pak (see the "Lemmings Re-Title-ing Challenge" thread).

I stand corrected.  I've just got the same 100% solution to work on the SNES also.  Maybe I just screwed up on my previous attempts.

I've been working more on Wicked 6 in ONML recently.  Last night I just managed to save 98% without using any bombers, but I can't seem to save the miner from falling too far.  As I said before, this can be corrected with a single bridge built by a lemming that drops before the miner, but the builder goes over the exit, and more builders are needed to get the crowd turned around.

Unfortunately, my best left-side solution so far requires five bridges, and I'm left with only four at the end. This would only be enough if the lemmings were not so bunched up.  I can't seem to get ccexplore's blocker trick to work yet, but I may still need to tweak around with the initial starting position of the miner.

I also just got the 100% on Wild 12.  I noticed that it implemented a couple of bugs (most notably, the one-way wall).

Finally, I realized that I was incorrect earlier in this thread when answering Ahribar's question about Crazy 8.  It is actually possible to clear the water (tentacles) with just 2 builders, but the builders must both be placed at the last possible pixel. 100% is therefore easier than I thought it was, because there are enough builders to create and build out of a pit.

Yeah, in fact, it is the very need to get the correct initial starting position that forces me to reduce the left side down to 3 builders, because it takes all the rest to get a viable starting position.  And I made tons of sketches on this before I get an initial mining position that works.  Remember that the miner should already be standing at the very edge when he does his final strike, so that there are no more steps for him to walk down to.  Otherwise you'd end up with a permanent blocker.  Each time a miner strikes 2 steps are created, each being 2 pixels wide and 1 pixel down.

Maybe you'll have better luck with your other approach which does sound like it requires less builders.  I'm not sure what qualifies as "too bunched up" though.  I would think that the miner's tunnel should be long enough to minimize "bunching up", but then again, I've never tried your way.

In any case, 98% with no bombers is a pretty good start.  B) That's where I ended up at before the 100%.  Good luck!


Good job!  Interesting too, it looks like that level has a couple of 100% solutions as well.  (Though not entirely surprising since I did remember having a builder left over in my solution I think.)  Mine goes completely underneath the one-way wall.  I'm not sure there's anything in my solution that I'd count as a bug though.

I just read through most of this thread and here are a few things that might be useful:
1)Instead of timing a click right after unpausing the game, hold down the mouse button and then unpause.
2)The emulation speed in Dosbox can be slowed down a lot to make timing easier.
Also, where are the builders used in the tame levels? I remember going through the tame levels trying use the fewest builders and ended up using 4. The odd thing is, one of them was used on tame 14.

Ohhh...level 20. I think I forgot to do that one when I went through the levels. :P

Oh wow, it works!  Thanks! B) (A little too late for me though?) Damn, that must be why everyone else seems to have an easier time with precision moves on Lemmings......)


That is a little smack of cheating I think, especially since you can't do this in real DOS.  Your great tip #1 should make this mostly unnecessary anyhow.

=8O

You learn something new every day! This should make some of those really annoying levels (and some of those challenges) quite a bit easier.

And, ccexplore, you pull off the craziest stunts in both Lemmings and Cheapo... you think everyone else seems to have an easier time with precision moves!?


I agree that slowing down DOSBox is cheating, even though it IS probably possible on some older machines. (You can slow down our old 386 with ctrl, alt and the minus key. It made most games stupidly easy, and I still think it was cheating then, but it was possible.)

You have to be careful with it though. Apparently it doesn't work unless the mouse is moved, or something like that.

This was actually derived from a different, but very similar, trick. I couldn't think of much use for it at the time, but now it seems like it could make some levels less annoying. It would be especially useful when trying to click a lemming at the edge of a crowd. So here it is:
Pi)If the mouse button is held down, the next lemming that gets in the cursor will be selected.
This one doesn't work unless the mouse is moved between each use.

I agree, you can do some really crazy things.

It isn't exactly new, insane steve found it for the fun 6 challenge.

Um no, it's not the same trick at all.

(note: spoilers about fun 6 below)
The Fun 6 trick allows you to push the lemmings through the thin wall near the exit via a blocker.  This works because the blocker prevents a lemming from turning around even when as it goes into the wall, until it has gone past the blocker's area of influence.

However, the case here in Mayhem 2 would, if you were to use the Fun 6 idea, require you to either A) push  the lemmings vertically thru the 7-pixel floor where the exit sits, or B) maybe for you to push them through that steel wall so you can build above and across the flamethrower.

A) doesn't work because blockers have no influence on a lemming's vertical movement, so the Fun 6 trick simply doesn't apply in that manner.

B) might conceivably work, except you'll definitely need to use more than a blocker in order to get through the width of the steel wall, applying the Fun 6 trick consecutively until you get over.  But the challenge requires 98% so you cannot use more than one blocker.  Moreover, the game mechanics prevents overlapping blockers, so I don't think you can even apply the trick consecutively unless you have a way to remove the previous blocker placed, which is impossible with the bomber skills removed.

So, in summary, it's not the Fun 6 trick and as far as I can tell, it couldn't be.

I have no idea how to do mayhem 2 without bombers, but I just discovered a really weird glitch(you probably already found it). I know that when a lemming is in ground, he can build to raise himself by one pixel. What I just discovered is that when a lemming is in ground, if he is made a climber, he goes up through any amount of ground until there is an opening.

Yeah, I think Insane Steve have either used it or mentioned it in one of his Lemedit levels, and I do know about it.

To date I haven't actually used that trick in any of the challenges I've done though, probably because most official levels with climbers generally have places where the climber can climb normally, or are easy levels with plenty of other skills.

Perhaps to be less misleading, I really should say, it's not quite the Fun 6 trick.  It's definitely not anything like the A and B I mentioned above.

AHA!
I finally found it, but I'm not going to give it away. Don't read this unless you have already figured it out, it could be a bit of a hint:
It isn't really a glitch, more of a mistake by the person who made the level.

Your hint wasn't quite what I expected.  While technically not entirely wrong, what you said is:

 1) missing something crucial; or
 2) is purposely omitting mentioning of the something crucial; or
 3) is altogether different from how I did it.

Yet it sounds like you must've actually tried what you said.  If that's the case, I would like to know exactly how you did it.  (E-mail guestlevels@yahoo.com, since you can't IM.)  If you haven't tried it yet, well, somehow I don't think what you have in mind would work, but then again maybe you're just pulling #2.  You should try it out (ignoring the 98%) and see.

I have found a method on Crazy 11 (no problemming) that only looses 3 or 4 lems...it involves a lame trick but it works.

Let lem 2 build over the tiny gap,when the stairs are finished,hit the NUKE button.

It wasn't supposed to be a hint, just a response to your original post. Now I'm not really sure that it is the same thing you found, because it might be possible to save 100% with it. (It would be X_X X_X X_X hard though.) Hmmm...ok, I'll try to email you.

Actually, I probably don't need to email you. I just tried it and saved 78/80 with no bombers. I used a blocker to hold back the crowd and ended up with 16 builders left. I might be able to verify the potential 100% part, if I use my best solving music. The music seems to affect my ability to do levels for some reason. Does anyone else seem to be affected by the music?

I'm confused.  If you save 78/80 and you said you use a blocker to hold back the crowd, what happened to the other lemming you lose, given that you said 100% might be possible?  (You can e-mail if you want.)

I guess later tonight, I should go back to the level and see how badly they messed up the level.  If it's really messed up in the manner you seem to imply, then 100% is pretty much possible then.

What a bummer though, if it's really solvable that manner then it's not as interesting anymore, and I might have to think about taking it out of my challenge set.  Well, I guess I could still keep it for the shock value but that'd be about it.

Well, at least on the SNES, I verified that it wasn't messed up in the manner I imagine based on guest's responses.

However, in the process it occurs to me now that there is indeed one other possibility I haven't checked.  Maybe that's what guest's solution is?  I'm going to check it on the SNES and/or PC once I have the chance.

If it works, then I guess that'd make you the first one to discover it.  Good job!  B)

Well, I checked it on the SNES and that didn't work either.

There is still yet another potential-100% thing that I haven't checked, but it is definitely a glitch, so it doesn't sound like something that guest did.

It's possible that maybe the SNES and PC happens to be different on this level.  That'd be somewhat surprising to me though.  Guess I'll have to wait.

I saved 78/80 without using the potential 100% part. It turns out that the 100% thing doesn't work. It would work if the level was mirrored though. O_o
I have a similar idea for saving 100%, but there probably wouldn't be enough builders to control the crowd, and it probably wouldn't work.

Ummmmmm....actually I'm not sure, and it doesn't really matter anyway.

I'm still curious what you tried, because there's little doubt with my method that you couldn't get 100% (or it would've been at least 2 new glitches not 1), so it still sounds like maybe you're doing it a little differently.

Well, my 100% idea didn't work. Which means that there isn't any way to save 100% without discovering some crazy new glitch. Ok, I'll email you, I'm not sure if I'll be able to dig up my email address though.

I did a quick test on this on the PC, using a custom-made level to facilitate specifically the testing of the idea.  Results indicate that it just doesn't work.

So I've certainly exhausted all my far-fetched, potential 100% ideas as not working (much to my gratification in a way, since they would otherwise defy my understanding of the game mechanics).  Until some new glitch is discovered, I don't think 100% is possible with the amount of skills you're given.

(And I haven't received any e-mails from guest yet so currently there are no new inspirations or ideas for new glitches either.)

I still appreciated guest's attempt on this.  At least he seems to have gotten either to where I am or very close, and it was stimulating enough for me to check 2 possibilities that I didn't check for earlier, even as they turn out fruitless.  B)

My email server appears to be down, I'll email you when I can.

So have I, and you will find out what they were if I can ever get that email through.

It can probably be done losing only one.  I haven't tried it, though, so I'm not certain.  Unfortunately, no matter how many lemmings are lost, the solution will not save more than 50%.  For each lemming that is saved on the right side, another will be lost on the left.

That was a good find, though.   :thumbsup:

Did you get the email?

I've been away from the computer, but yes, I've now received your e-mail and replied.

Amazing how much we think alike.  Guest is now indeed the second person (the first being myself) to have found my 98% no-bomber solution for that level. :thumbsup: Unfortunately, the 100% ideas he tried were the same as the ones I've tried, so no progress on that front either.

Interesting...

I sent a reply, it might help explain a bit about the glitch.

Hmmm...Tricky 23. Is the best so far lose 1 or lose 0?

lose 1

That depends on the version of Lemmings being played.  I've heard that 100% is possible in the Sega version because only one bridge is required to build out of the pit.  The max is 98% on the other versions (although the most I've ever succeeded in getting is 95%).  

I almost got 100% on that level in the PC version, but my solution won't work :-(. I used the digger and the two bashers to block off the left side, and I mined through the wall.  The miner broke through about five pixels above the bottom of the pit.  From the last pixel in the miner's tunnel, I built a bridge toward the exit. Unfortunately, the pit is one pixel too wide to be cleared with a bridge, so the solution fails.

This is the source of the alleged 100%:

http://eng-forum.lemmingswelt.de/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=news;action=display;num=1094183189;start=18#18

I believe some time ago I checked that on the Sega Genesis/Megadrive the level was just like the PC/Amiga/etc. versions, so if the 100% thing is indeed true it must be referring to the SMS/Game Gear version.

Yes, Steaver meant the SMS version. You can tell because of his reference to a release rate of 50. Note also that in other posts in that topic he refers to the SMS unique levels, but gives no sign that he's even heard of the Genesis ones.

WOOHOO!!! Another challenge:

wild 15: save 47/50

It's not exactly new, but I'm pretty sure no one here has verified that before. The hardest parts are the pixel precision, and the !#$!@ time limit! I have one screenshot that says "In 94%".

Sorry, ccexplore got that already. Page 6 of this thread.

Ahribar, the post you're referring to is for Wicked 15 not Wild 15.  (Moreover, the post you referred to was superseded by this one.)  ;)

I think I might've at some point gotten the 47/50 for Wild 15 that LemSteven mentioned as something he heard of but didn't confirm himself.  I was of course trying to go for 48/50 though, so since I wasn't able to do that I never announced anything for Wild 15, in the same way that I would probably not bother with Havoc 20 unless I find a lose-6 solution.  (Not to say that 47/50 in Wild 15 is anywhere near Havoc-20-difficult.)

But good job to guest nonetheless.  :)

I was playing ONML this weekend and I got the 98% solutions for Wicked 9 and 10.  9 was pretty easy, but 10 was a battle that came down to the last pixel.  It took me over an hour to figure out and execute the solution.

Before I got to those levels, I found an interesting challenge on Wicked 8.  It's not a new score, but I managed to complete the level in less than 1 minute.

Also based on the layout of Wicked 8, I think that the solution posted on The Lemmings Solution is a backroute.  The intended solution probably involves sending an athlete to the exit and building left from there.

That could be, though I find it somewhat hard to believe that the level designer would have overlooked the solution on The Lemmings Solution.

How hard is the your Wicked 8 challenge (ie. how many seconds left on the clock before the minute's up)?

Good job on Wicked 9 and Wicked 10 btw. :thumbsup:

Oops, you're right. Ironic thing is, I saw the later post, got all excited because you'd done better than 47/50, then realised that was Wicked 15, so of course when I saw the other one I assumed it had to be Wild. :P

As for the Wicked 8 backroute -- it's not much of a backroute anyway, when it's the same difficulty and uses the same skills. I don't see any way of guessing which solution was intended; perhaps the designer knew both.

I was trying that too, but the time limit seems to make it impossible. With an extra minute, it probably would have been possible, but a bit harder than 47/50.

I just realized that I haven't actually thought of the method you are apparently using for your 47/50.  Or rather, I did consider it, but never in a way that could allow for 48/50 at all.

Too bad there's not enough time, but maybe I should re-look at the level nonetheless.

Hmm, seems like what I now have in mind isn't what guest is doing.  The trouble I'm having is not the time limit, but rather that a few lemmings always catches up too soon to the trailblazer, causing me to lose far more than 2.  An example of a fail attempt is saving 90% (so 3 unplanned casualties) with 27 seconds left on the clock.  (This can easily be converted to a suitable 47/50 solution though if you're not going for 48/50.)

What this does mean though is that 48/50 should not be ruled out yet.

The guest-inspired solution unfortunately didn't lead me anywhere.  But it did somehow got my brain juice flowing enough that I finally found something that works!  B)

Wild 15: lose 2 (48/50, 96%)

This solution ends up being a modification of my earlier 47/50 solution.  Notably, it uses a glitch, whereas the guest-inspired 47/50 solution is glitch-free.  The 48/50 adds another glitch.

The glitch for my non-guest 47/50 is an old one that's well known before I even came to this forum.  The 48/50 glitch is one that I knew about for some time, but I guess I either discovered it some time after my earlier tries of Wild 15, or that I never saw to use it on this level.  It's arguably not necessarily a glitch, but nonetheless it's something I don't think anyone has yet ever thought about, or have used it to either solve or create a level with.  Unfortunately, again I want to reserve this for my future purposes, so no more details on it for now.  (Well ok, one hint:  it's the interaction of 2 skills.  The result is arguably completely in line with what the 2 skills usually do.)

Many thanks to guest.  Without him, I would've all but forgotten this level.  Want a hint on one of the other levels?

I still don't know for sure why guest had problems with the time limit, but on that note, my 48/50 solution should give you about 50 seconds left on the clock.

Upon further thought, there might be a way to get the same overall effect without using that glitch.  However, you'd then need to space 2 lemmings very close together, which can be a little difficult since this is a 2-trapdoor level.  I have to go to work soon, but later when I have the chance maybe I'll see if I can get it to work without the 48/50 glitch.  That being said, using the glitch will definitely be easier to execute.

The 47/50 glitch is still necessary though.

Oops, nevermind, you do need the 48/50 glitch.  What I was thinking couldn't work because one of the lemmings will end up facing the wrong direction.

Jesus. I don't even know where to begin on Tricky 23 on making a way that will prevent the Lemmings from turning around and falling off the bridge. I can summise that the method either involves creating a pit of some kind to prevent the Lemmings from walking left off the edge, or making a pit to contain everyone and only allowing a few Lemmings to go ahead and create the path to the exit, then you release everyone else. Most of the other levels I've either done myself to that standard or can see how it is possible.

I used to consider myself and ok gamer at this game but I'm just a n00b compared to some people here. XD And to show my n00bness, what exactly is the Fun 6 trick? (Sorry if it was said somewhere already) It says use 3 blockers. Does that mean use 2 at the start to compress everyone into a 1 Lemming width, bomb the floor to release everyone and then turn one into a blocker near the wall to force everyone through? I can't see how that last part works though where the 2 original blockers won't be part of the 1 Lemming width..

And in what will probably be my only time ever correcting guest, on Tricky 23 on the Genesis version of Lemmings you don't appear to be able to build directly out of the pit. That's the version I have and it's not possible (yes, all 12 steps from the bridge were laid down) to get the bridge high enough to build out of the pit on its own. I'm using an emulator as I don't have my console with me at University, but it doesn't seem possible to do that, maybe on another version but not the Genesis.

About Genesis Tricky 23:




By the way, you are correct on the Fun 6 trick, but of course that is not the way to only lose 2! The way to lose just 2 is just the normal way. Bomb, bomb. (And use a blocker to make it easier.) This was a separate challenge to use just 1 bomber, and save as many as possible.

D'oh! Should have known the other resident expert ccexplore would have been able to correct him.

And yeah, I knew the obvious way to lose 2 on that level, my point was that because you've used 2 blockers originally to make the one Lemming width, at least one of those 2 blockers isn't going to be contained in that one Lemming, so I can't see how you are able to force everyone through the wall, that's the part I was hoping someone would clear up.

Finally decided to register today, with the full name I use. ^^ If you want to see where else I use it, just type it into Google, it'll be the top entry.

When I played it, I got it in about 55 seconds, but I probably could have done it in 50 seconds if I had sped up the release rate sooner.

Good job on Wild 15, btw. :thumbsup:

Welcome to the forums!


As Shvegait pointed out in his response, the Fun 6 challenge that uses only one bomber does not save the maximum number of lemmings possible.  So you don't have to worry about saving any of the 3 blockers you used.  I think I have briefly looked at whether it's possible to lose only 2 with one bomber, but the initial RR of 50 and the entrance location seems to make it impossible to collect the lemmings in one spot with only a single blocker.

As for Tricky 23, if you want I can PM you the general idea of the various solutions that saves more than what the level intended.  You're correct that you have to do something to contain the flow of lemmings that turn around from the "boundary line".

I can't even beat "from the boundary line" most of the times when I play it...could you PM me with the solutions you know of?

I could easily beat "from the boundary line". If i find the solution I could send it to you.

That would be cool :)

This is my top-5 of levels I can't beat and the percentage of failiure...

1)Race against the cliches (100% failiure,still never beat it :()
2)From the boundary line (95% failiure)
3)Just a minute part two (95%)
4)Just a minute (95%)
5)Save me (75%)

If some real lemmings expert could tell me more about those levels,it would be greatly appreciated...an ow,I know about "the lemmings solution" website :)

This is how you can complete "from the boundary line"

+ Bash through the wall using the first Lemming that gets to it.
+ While he's bashing, make him a climber.
+ When the climber is done bashing, you must have at least 49 Lemmings left over. If you don't, you can't win, because 48 is 60% of 80, and that's what you need to beat the level. If you have 49 when the climber is finished bashing, go ahead. If you don't, start over. I say 49 because with the way you're supposed to beat this level, the climber will have to die. If he's the 48th one and he dies, you're down to 47, and that won't cut the mustard.
+ When the climber scales the wall and is headed for the exit, dig a small bit before the exit.
+ Build to make him turn around. Make sure that when you build, the other non-climber Lemmings will be able to walk up to the exit.
+ Mine to the left so that the other Lemmings can walk up through the diagonal tunnel and watch as at least 48 of them head for the exit.

I can beat the level that way too,altough I fail very much...but my method involves making the first 10 lems athletes and let the 11th lem bash.
Mostly I end up  with 45 or 46 lems after the wall is breached.

However I heared about solutions saving a much larger percentage than 60% and I'dd like to know how to pull that off :)

By the way JM,I added you a while ago to my MSN but you're never online...otherwise we could share levels and enhance eachothers levels or something like that :)

Sorry If i wasn't online. I don't go on msn a lot. Was this the address you have added thetransplants2@hotmail.com?

Probably because of my stubbornness to get the solution to work. I ended up with 4 seconds left. Now I'll go off and try to do it a different way...

I was wondering how the lemmings died in your solutions (47/50  and 48/50), mine all died because they blew up.

My powers of observation must be failing me then. -_-

As for From The Boundary Line normal solution, all I did was bash through with the first Lemming, build as soon as soon as you drop down, get one Lemming to climb but instead of digging, building and mining the other way, I just dug as soon as the guy climed the small gap up to the level of the exist and bashed when he dug down a little way, that seemed to work just as well if I'm remembering rightly as I'm sure I had 2 Bashers on that level.

A PM containing a couple of hints at containing the flow (genesis version) would be nice if you wouldn't mind though ccexplore. ^^ I must admit I'm seriously impressed at how you and guest and others seem to know so much about these games. It wouldn't surprise me if you've whittled down the minimum number of Lemmings you have to lose in Levels to a lower number than the creaters themselves can. Especially that building on thin air trick I saw mentioned somewhere. Genious

.

I'm no expert, but I can try the Just A Minutes for you. For both of them, what I did was to bash with the first 4 Lemmings that come through without changing the release rate. Make sure they all bash forward and none turn around. With the 5th Lemming you make him dig just behind where the bashers are at the point he catches them. Make sure he's dug down enough so that when Lemmings turn around, they can't walk out to the left and back to the trap. Bash forward when the pit is deep enough, but not so deep that the Lemmings can't get out the front (the angle of the bash leaves slightly raised ground on the direction of the bash) and crank the RR up to 99. I've only ever done this with no time to spare, the level is fading out as the last Lemming goes in. There are other methods, but that's what worked for me. ^^

;) What I really meant was, I couldn't quite figure out for sure what your solution actually is, since you said the time limit is tight for you.


For the you-inspired 47/50 as well as well as the 48/50, they died from blowing up.  For my earlier 47/50 that relates to the 48/50, two blows up, the third you don't have to blow up.

Of course, it's not just who blow up, but where......

DeathMan48 and Leviathan, check your PM for Tricky 23 info.

DeathMan48:  you asked for hints.  I think what I PM you is more like a walkthrough.  If you want something more subtle, let me know and don't read the PM titled "Tricky 23".  I can PM you more subtle hints instead (which will be titled "Tricky 23 Hints").

Here is a very bad explanation:

1)RR 50
2)Bomb #1 in the middle of the first brick he lands on.
3)Make #2 a blocker as soon as he hits the ground.(right entrance)
4)RR 5
5)Bomb #3 just like #1.
6)Make #4 a blocker as soon as possible.
7)Make #5 bash so that two pixels of the bash lane are below the white line in the bricks.
8)Make #7 a blocker in the bash tunnel.
9)RR 99
10)When #5 reaches the end, make him build.
11)After #5 has built 7 steps and is on his 7th step, make him bash.
12)When #4 is released he will go to the right. Make him a blocker close to the trap.
13)#2 will be slightly behind the rest of the clump. The clump should hit the bash tunnel and turn around, #2 should keep going.
14)Bomb #7.
15)Make #2 build over the chain.
16)Make #2 bash 6 or 7 (preferably 6) pixels from the top of the ramp-like thingy.
17)When the timer is at about 37, make a lemming dig next to the steel.
18)None of the lemmings should fall to their doom, and they should all get in on time.

Truly dreadful.

Since it's been asked, here are some hints for "Just a Minute" and "Just a Minute Part Two".

Part One

How easy or hard this is really depends on the version. I first played it on the Mac, where it's easiest: dig into the little box just before the wall, bash, release rate 99.

Here's how I solved the Genesis version, which is probably the hardest: start bashing straight away with the first lemming. The second lemming digs into the little box. The basher should now dig until he's just higher than where the other lemmings are trapped, then carry on bashing. Release rate 99. At a certain point (you'll have to experiment to get the timing right), bash the crowd out of their box. The idea is that they walk down the basher's tunnel and reach him just as he breaks through -- you don't lose time with lemmings walking all the way back to the start. This solution should work on all versions. (To be honest I didn't find this solution; ccexplore told me it.)

Part Two

Well, on the Mac, you just bash with the first lemming, dig with the second low enough to keep the lemmings contained and then bash, release rate 99. This is a bit random and sometimes fails, but you should usually succeed with about a second left.

On the Genesis, start by increasing the release rate to around 50. Again bash with the first lemming, but dig behind him with the third. Have the second lemming turn round and dig just in front of the other digger; then when they are deep enough to hold the lemmings, have them both bash, opposite ways, to make a holding area. The rest is the same as Part One. Again, this should work on all versions, since the Genesis version seems to be the slowest.

Not at all!  In fact, wow!  :thumbsup:

You see, I saw from the beginning 2 approaches, and more recently (well, today) you inspired me the 3rd ("guest-inspired") approach, for 47/50.  The approaches differ in particular from how they attack the final obstacle (yep, 3 totally different ways, at least for 47/50!).

But I never quite found a working solution, even a 47/50 one, for the approach you took in you solution, despite being aware of the possibility.  So I'm actually a little impressed that you got it to work.  I can also see now why you need to wait so long in your solution.

Your approach is not what I consider "glitch-free" because of how you attack the final obstacle, and is in fact distinct from all my solutions, be it 47/50 or 48/50.  (Although your solution does contain some elements of my no-glitch, "guest-inspired" 47/50, despite handling the final obstacle completely differently.)

Anyway, it's too bad that the time limit makes your approach less favorable for 48/50.  Had it worked for 48/50, your solution would have the property of involving only 1 glitch, whereas mine uses 2.  (And you probably would've gotten 48/50 before I do.)

Actually, I think he was asking about the challenge solutions for Tricky 23.  ;P

Oh!

Well, I guess that would explain it. :P

Uhhh...yea, it was hard. I probably can't even do it again.

Are you sure that there are 3 other completely different ways of getting past the final obstical? There only appear to be two ways to go: down, or sideways (through the silver thing with holes).

Oh, you meant the whole solution.

Absolutely!  Talk about the irony!  The one you didn't list is the one I called the "guest-inspired" solution!  ;)

The fact that I described it as "glitch free" should hopefully give you an idea.  Also the fact that I mentioned it has similarities to your solution.  It is also a relatively hard one to pull off though, even though it's not as tight on the time limit.

Nope.  There are really 3 ways to handle the final obstacle, each leading to a working 47/50 solution.

Of course, this in turn forces you to handle the rest of the level a little differently for each solution, due to the limited amount of skills.

I have a couple of ideas of how to get 48/50 on Wild 15, but can't tell whether they will work or not yet because I don't have Lemmings installed on my college computer.

After staring at the Lemmings Solution picture, I'm pretty sure that I figured out an easy method to 47/50.

I won't have time to work it out next weekend because I'm traveling to see relatives (it's a holiday weekend in the US).  Maybe the weekend after that...

To make up for not saying anything about the new glitch/trick/whatever I used for my 48/50, I'll instead mention this, which I guess some people should know already anyway:

The wheel trap looks much bigger than its trigger area actually is.

I should also add that a no-glitch 48/50 solution (based on the "guest-inspired" 47/50) isn't totally ruled out, but still it is very unlikely to work and definitely not the easy way to go.

I tried to find a way to save 48/50 using the digging thing I used first, but didn't get anything. I actually found a 47/50 solution that looks like it could be changed a little to save 48/50. That solution involved bashing through the silver-thingy-with-holes-in-it. It might be possible to save 49/50, but I'm not going to try it until I get 48/50.

I didn't know that before because I have never lost any lemmings to that trap.  I was once told that it was a trap, and I knew to avoid it altogether.

Where exactly is the trigger area?

I don't know exactly, but basically a bit left of the wheel's center.

I know exactly because I've been making new styles using the old objects :P It's just left of the semicircle-on-top-of-a-rectangle object in front of the wheel.

Hard as it might be for people to believe, I've actually managed to lower the number yet again:

Tame 20:  save 100% without builders

This one uses 2 glitches that I've already used in other Lemmings challenge levels.  One I used in Wild 5 lose 3 solution, the other I used in the recent 48/50 solution of Wild 15.  Recall that both are relatively tame (no pun intended) tricks, for example they are far less weird than the miner glitch on Havoc 10.

I feel bad about not willing to reveal yet the trick I used for Wild 15, although it really only plays a very minor part in this Tame 20 solution (as well as the Wild 15 solution).  [In fact, I suspect you might even be able to get away with not use it for Tame 20.]  Just so people understand that glitches aren't that powerful, I'll note that all the glitches I have found and used so far involves actions of a single lemming, so in particular, the final path that the crowd takes to the exit is always perfectly non-glitchy (well, you can argue this point for the no-bomber Mayhem 2, but that's about it.)

I suppose I should verify this for the Amiga at some point too.  Maybe this weekend.

Actually, I guess it's 3 glitches.  The glitch I neglected to count isn't a new glitch either, in fact it has been used in other people's level(s?) before I even came to the forums here.  Surprisingly though, I think this is the first time I've made use of it on a lemmings challenge.

Ironically, this glitch is probably more weird compared with the other 2 that I have counted in the last post.

A true subset of LemSteven's challenge's skillset will probably never yield 100%, but I did found something close enough that works for Taxing 9, "perseverence" (and of course also Fun 10).  Note that Taxing 9 requires 100% to pass.

Unfortunately, this requires the Wild 15 trick, which I don't want to reveal now, so I can't even tell you what this new Taxing 9 challenge is without potentially giving away too much.  ;) Oh well, some other time.

Actually, now that I think of it, there are other, much more ordinary ways to do the level using the same skills as my unrevealable challenge.  That being said, my challenge does have one notable property, which I think none of those other ways (that I know of) have:

Every lemming ultimately ends up falling on the left side of the starting platform, no one ever goes any further right than that when they reach the bottom.

Of course, there are some obvious ways to do such a thing, which is why I have to tell you which skills are allowed for this to be a challenge.

Furthermore, I think it's also worthwhile to point out that in all my challenge solutions, the glitches ultimately are only involved with path creation or crowd control (or other relatively minor things), so every lemming that doesn' die exits in a normal manner.  So for example, none of the glitches teleport you directly to the exit or cause the number saved to be calculated incorrectly (and thank god for that, it would be incredibly stupid otherwise).

Indeed, the only known glitch of that sort of outrageousness is the nuke glitch Conway once pointed out (where if you complete the level when nuke is in effect, the game calculates the percentage based only on the number of lemmings out when you nuke, not the total number that should've came out).  Not to say that I haven't tried applying it to the challenges (Five Alive for example), but so far it hasn't help.

Well, it's pretty clear what sorts of tricks you must use (and of course your hints help as well), but one problem with glitches is that they don't always want to cooperate (there is one in particular that is "uncooperative" at times).

So far I've managed to save 4% without builders. It's a start :) (Of course I could have saved more easily, but not all...) I know what else must be done, though. I've only used two glitches, and they are both well-known (or well enough known) glitches, so the missing link may very well be the Wild 15 glitch... but actually I'm not sure another glitch is even necessary...

I know exactly what you're talking about.

I guess I was still in a Wild-15-glitch mode when I was trying, so that just happens to be the simplest way I can think of to do a certain thing.  With the glitch in my toolbox, taking care of the thing in other ways seem harder, but other ways are far from ruled out.

Good luck!

Ok, you definitely don't need the Wild 15 glitch for this.  I found a perfectly normal (and not much harder) way to get the same effect.  Don't know how I could've miss this; as I said, I guess I was in a Wild-15-glitch mood.

Good, the less glitches the better.

This obviously uses that godawful glitch, but despite that, it's actually more challenging then you might expect (at least how I did it, if I didn't overlook something):

Fun 8:  obtain 100% under 10 seconds.

The actual time I got was definitely less than 10 seconds, in case you're wondering.  Consider "under 10 seconds" to mean that the clock never got around to display "4-50".

Oh, and in case there are some easier ways that I overlooked, try this:

Fun 8:  obtain 100% under 10 seconds, using no more than 3 skills

This isn't really all that challenging, but should be a fun one (no pun intended) for your brain:

Fun 11:  save 100% without builders, without floaters, and with at most 2 diggers.

(usage of other skills left unspecified/unrestricted)

This is a glitch-free solution.  There is a variation of this challenge that involves a glitch, which is best left for another time.

Would the glitch be the mayhem 2 one? That's how I did it.

For Fun 11?  No it was something else, although I haven't really looked into using the Mayhem 2 glitch there.

I'm not sure how helpful Mayhem 2 glitch would be though, seems more complicated than necessary.  Would you mind e-mailing me what you did?  Did you get 100% with no floaters, no builders, and no more than 2 diggers, as the challenge specifies?

I still think I might not have ruled out easier methods sufficiently, so let's add this additional criteria to both variations:

no blockers

Come to think of it, using blockers isn't going to help you much.  You still need to free the blocker for 100%, but after freeing him, he won't be going in the direction you need, so you'll still end up needing to turn a lemming around without the blocker, all the while time is ticking.

I sent an email. I could email you a screenshot if you want to see how weird it is, but you probably wouldn't have any trouble executing the solution.

Oh!  Good job.  :thumbsup:

Quite clever how it works out.  I totally didn't consider that.  Very cool.

It uses a little more skills, but it too is as worthy (if not more so) a solution as what I had in mind for the variation-of-Fun-11-challenge, so what the heck, risky for me or not, let's call out what the variation is now:

Fun 11:  save 100% without floaters, without builders, and using at most 1 digger [note difference with earlier challenge where you're allowed 2]

guess' solution satisfies the criteria of this challenge

Here's a couple more fewer-builder challenges:

Fun 7- Save 100% with just 2 builders (the basic solution is obvious, but it's tricky to control the crowd.)

Tricky 11 - Save 98% with no builders (100% may be possible with ccexplore's Tame 20 trick, but I haven't gotten it to work.)

Tricky 30 - Save 100% with no builders.

Note that none of these require any glitches, but some of them require techniques that are not ordinarily used.

I haven't yet tried ccexplore's challenges for Fun 8 and 11, but I have a good idea as to what the solutions are.  I'll have to try them and see if my ideas work.

The Tame-20 trick/glitch is fast becoming the basis for more "no-builder" challenges:

Tricky 12:  save 100% with no builders and no more than 2 climbers

Note the restriction on climbers, since otherwise you would have a rather obvious solution.

In terms of glitches, aside from Tame-20, I did use Wild-15 one or two times, though you should be able to do it without Wild 15.  (But it does make things slightly easier, I think.)

Let me note that for Fun 8, at least the way I did it, the main challenge was in the precision required (mostly temporal and not spatial precision).  Still, if you find your last lemming not even reaching the edge of the exit object when times-up, you probably want to do it another way.

One interesting incentive for figuring out the Fun 8 challenge:  the moves are also used for my solutions to two other challenges, challenges of the "save as many as possible" kind.  (That said, only this Fun 8 challenge requires the precision part.)

I did verify that the two glitches involved also works on the Amiga.

However, shockingly, I also found the first game-mechanical difference between the PC/DOS and Amiga versions of ONML.  On the PC, the digger basically can still keep digging even if he's just off the edge (so that the only column of pixels he's taking out is the rightmost or leftmost of the 9 or so columns a digger takes out).  Whereas the Amiga version is less forgiving.  I don't know exactly what the Amiga version requires in order for the digger to continue digging instead of falling, but I've seen the digger fall even when he's hanging onto I think 3 (or is it 2?) columns of pixels.

For Tame 20, I think this difference is still okay, although this does mean I need to redo a solution specifically for the Amiga since my DOS one would not work out identically due to aforementioned difference.  But this could impact other levels, for example I've been thinking about a 2-builder solution for Tame 13, which I would much rather attempt on the Amiga where I could use savestates.  But the Amiga's less forgiving digger mechanics means 2-builder Tame-13 is likely impossible there.  >:(

Fortunately, this difference for the most part doesn't affect any of my solutions to any of the other challenges thus far, since none of those solutions involve diggers digging so off-the-edge.  The only solution that might be of some concern is Mayhem 29, but there I'm quite certain the digging is close enough to the edge that it should still work on the Amiga (though I should verify it sooner or later).

Here's a challenge that apart from "guest", no one right now would believe possible:

Tricky 9:  100% without builders

This is actually the showcase example of the Mayhem 2 glitch.  In Mayhem 2 the use is much more subdued; here, the use is quite dramatic.

What an odd glitch! I wonder if it's a performance limitation (like a related issue with you-know-what). It is very strange nonetheless.

(I haven't saved 100%, just 93% so far (the minimum), but I see how it is possible without builders.)

I doubt I would have even tried looking for that glitch on Mayhem 2, but here you really have no choice...

I got ccexplore's challenges for both Fun 8 and 11 yesterday.  I'm back in school until Saturday, though, so I won't be able to try any more challenges until then.

I know of another "glitch" that saves builders on several more levels, including Mayhem 12 and Havoc 11.  I haven't yet worked either of them out to determine the minimum, but it's likely that Mayhem 12 can be done with about 6-7 builders, and Havoc 11 can be done with about 10-12 builders.  This glitch also saves a lot of time on both levels, so I wouldn't be surprised to see both of them done in under 2 minutes.

I'll have to try these next weekend and see what I can come up with.

Can you e-mail or PM me your solution to Fun 8 challenge?  Just want to see whether it's what I expected or whether you end up with something I overlooked.

Now that you've said that was possible, it might make it easier for people to figure out the glitch. I actually thought about using the glitch for mayhem 29 but there are some problems...
I should try tricky 9...I have a feeling it would look really crazy...

I know, but eventually at some point I was going to create a "new glitch" set, with new levels not based on the originals, featuring the new glitches I've found anyway, but the fact is, Tricky 9 is about as good as it gets when it comes to this glitch, so I figure I might as well point that level out now.

Ah, useful glitch.  I can do Mayhem 12 now with 6 builders.  I forgot whether it was under 2 minutes or not, but under 2 minutes should definitely be no problem with an additional builder.

I'll work out Havoc 11 later.  10-12 builders seems a bit excessive, but maybe it's messier than I expected (Yes, I do see that the terrain is a bit less straightforward, but even so...)

I saved 100% on tricky 9 with no builders...and...well...it just sort of looks like it defies logic. ;P

I've now saved 100% on Havoc 11 with 8 builders.  It's rather annoying though because of the precision needed here and there.  Screenshots available upon request for those who can solve Mayhem 12 100% with 6 builders.

On my successful try, the clock reads 1-58 (probably close to going down to 1-57) when the last lemming exits, but I could definitely have released the crowd sooner, so the level should be solvable this way in under 2 minutes.

Does tricky 9 without builders involve getting trough the steel and creating a direct drop?

I'll answer you in PM.

Don't know why I didn't try this sooner.  Anyhow, new record:

Wicked 12: save 98% (79/80)

Believe it or not, this is a glitch-free solution.

It can be a little tricky to get it to work though, even after you have the right idea.  Besides some precision that's necessary, it seems that you have to do things in a very very specific way for this to work out the way you want.  Or maybe it's just coincidence that I could only get it to work out when doing it that certain way.

Anyway, anyone who thinks they have the right idea but couldn't seem to get the game to just cooperate, e-mail or PM me and I'll give you a tip that might help.  However, what qualifies as a "right idea" involves sending a screenshot of places where you need to be pixel-precise (truly at-that-spot-pixel-precise, as opposed to off-by-1-pixel-okay), not just explaining the idea in general.  Sorry for being vague, basically when I determine that you got to a certain point regarding this level I will give you the tip, which incidentally might or might not really help, since I don't really understand why it would make a difference in the first place.

Anyhow.  So let's see, I think the ultimate challenge for ONML has gotten down to 85 lost total, correct?

May I recall you that I found a solution mentioned above that cuts down lots of lost lemmings on "No problemming" ?

I don't know if that (maybe little lame) trick counts but it's a nice excuse to make the ONML losses more comparable to the original lemming's losses :)

I don't think it counts, because while the PERCENTAGE of lemmings saved is higher, the NUMBER of lemmings saved is much lower. Lemmings who don't come out of the trapdoors shouldn't count as saved.

Actually, it's the other way around.  Because the unsavable trapdoor is where the first lemming comes out, you can never get over 50% even with the nuke glitch.

Now, it's true that in a way you lose fewer lemmings, in the sense that fewer lemmings died.  On the other hand, if we count instead by the number of lemmings we saved, since most lemmings never even come out with the nuke glitch, they don't really count as having been saved either.

So I'm not sure what to make of your trick on Crazy 11.  I guess we've been reporting total number of lemmings lost so Leviathan do have a point.

Of course, it's a bit of a moot point until I managed to lower another score on ONML in the future.   Maybe I'll report future progress in a format like 85 (46), where the number in parenthesis are the numbers lost when taking into account Crazy 11 (note that I don't know yet if you can really lost just the first lemming on Crazy 11, the 46 is just for explanation purposes).

Oops. I guess I meant the same percentage, not a higher one. I still think it shouldn't count, though, since you're actually saving fewer lemmings (1/2 instead of 40/80.. and the level calls for 80).

I say it doesn't count; regardless of the percentage, you can get 80 lemmings on the level and you saved one. Which versions of the game allow the trick, anyway? Have you tried testing?

I did remember testing the nuke trick on the Amiga on Lemmings (ie. not ONML) and it doesn't work.  I haven't really tested other versions but I have a good feeling that, like the direct-drop trick, the nuke trick only works in certain versions, possibly just the PC.

Still, the scores already assume the PC version.  The Amiga version for example, as far as I can tell, you cannot adjust the RR while the game is paused, so I think some challenge solutions wouldn't work on the Amiga version due to that limitation.

Whether you want to count or discount the lemmings that didn't die because they didn't come out is up to you.  I already noted a long time ago, before the discussion of the nuke trick came into being,  that the total number for ONML are bloated by the lemmings you couldn't save in Crazy 11, whereas there is no equivalent level in Lemmings (you can equivalently state that ONML doesn't have a level like Lemming's Tricky 25 or whatever Cascade is).

It's actually interesting to look at the numbers again.  People used to say how you lose a lot more lemmings in ONML then in Lemmings.  But if you discount the 40 from Crazy 11 as an anomaly, you now see that you lost I think 64 per the 120 Lemmings level, and 45 per the 80 ONML levels (80 since, to quote Ahribar, "Tame hardly counts").  As you can see the ratios are now actually fairly similar (though I guess numerically ONML is still slightly higher).

Now a record for the fewer-builders challenges:

Taxing 21:  100% without builders

Obviously it uses a few glitches.

The solution has a few places where precision is necessary in order for certain moves to be effective and/or non-fatal.  If you're finding yourself unsure why a move is only sometimes effective or sometimes non-fatal, or if you know why but just not how to do it right, e-mail or PM for tips (yes, the tips are guaranteed to work, unlike Wicked 12).  Like Wicked 12, I want some proof first that you know what you're doing first (but I guess I don't need a screenshot).

btw, none of the glitches used are new.  I have already used them in other levels.

Actually, now down to just 5 builders on Mayhem 12.  This should be the absolute minimum, barring some new unknown glitch.

This is slightly less straightforward then you might expect, especially towards the end.  What you think could work is hampered by the fact (well, I don't know for sure, but it looks like it) that the exit's trigger area is only 4 pixels wide, so you need to find a way to turn a lemming around without using builders.

======================

As a balance to all these talks of glitches which I don't reveal in many of my recent solutions, I will now present another useful fact, something that I'm actually finding myself do more and more with the recent challenges.

In CustLemm/Lemmings/ONML, the basher moves forward exactly 5 pixels for every bash stroke.

So for example:

O....X....W
If the Lemming is standing at the position marked "o" when you assigned him the basher, one stroke later he will end up at "x", and then at "w" after the second stroke.  Each character above represents one pixel.

Certainly not earth-shattering, but I certainly have found myself doing a lot of sketchings lately based on this.  It's a good way to find out where your basher will end up, or a good way to figure out where exactly you should start bashing in order to end up at a certain place you want.

Now, the basher does move continously.  It does not skip the intervening pixels.  However, the nice thing about it is, the basher is stationary while it is removing terrain, which takes several frames to complete.  It's clear how when you look at the animation, there's a phase where the basher is standing still doing the stroke, and then followed by the phase where he moves forward in preparation for the next stroke.

So while in theory you can assign skills to the basher at its moving phase, it's obviously more preferable to assign him a skill at its non-moving phase, at which it'll stay put at one location.  Which is why it helps to know how to calculate where you should start bashing.  Then you only need to count how many strokes you need to wait for, and then at the start of the stroke after the count, assign the skill, and you're guaranteed to have the skill assigned at the location you want, provided you started bashing at the exact location you calculated.

I forgot to talk about how long the solution takes to complete.  Since the fewer number of builders do mean you have to do a little more work, I don't think you can do Mayhem 12 in under 2 minutes if you only have 5 builders.  Even 6 builders might be a bit of a stretch for under 2 minutes (but I won't be surprised if it's possible).

On my successful attempt, the clock actually reads 0-55 after the last lemming exited, although I definitely could've released the crowd much sooner, so under 3 minutes should be possible with 5 builders.

Regarding Mayhem 12, I also want to thank Ahribar for a tip/technique he talked about a long long time ago for some other level in Lemmings (I don't remember if it's a challenge or not, but at any rate the post with the tip/technique in question existed long before the challenge thread was even created.)  Since the tip is already somewhere in this forum, I'll leave it as an exercise for the interested reader to search for it himself/herself.

The tip is not specific to Mayhem 12 at all, it can be applied many other places I'm sure, it's just that this seems like the first time I've actually explicitly needed that tip/technique on a Lemmings level.  And no, it's not a glitch.

This is hardly a real challenge, but, just to confirm that it does work on the PC version:

Havoc 6:  100% without builders

Not surprisingly, you can do this under a minute.

Here's another fewer-builder challenge that is glitch-free:

Mayhem 17:  Save 100% using only 6 bridges.  Although, now that I think about it, it may be possible with 5 (I'll have to check).  It may be possible to lower the number even further with ccexplore's Tame 20 glitch, though.

Also, going on to the next level, I've extended Conway's challenge from earlier in the thread:

Mayhem 18:  Save 100% in less than 2 minutes.

I also worked on Tricky 9, and I beat it with only one builder.  I can't seem to get it builder-free, though.

I've looked into this briefly and will look again when I have time.  Though given the limited number of diggers miners and bashers available, this can be an interesting level where the lowest number of builders you can get away with will not yield 100%.  We'll see when I get around to trying things out.

100% with 5 bridges is now confirmed.  This barely works and it requires some precision, but it doesn't involve any glitches.

Hint:  You have to turn the lemmings around without using any bridges.  This is possible, but very annoying to pull off.

Yet another fewest-builders challenge:

Taxing 17(X marks the spot): Save 100% with only one bridge.

It doesn't use any glitches. It's fun to watch the lemmings go to the exit.

Another one:

Taxing 1(If at first you don't succeed..): Save 100% with only 6 builders.

No glitches, again.

Finally confirmed this:

Taxing 10:  100% with no more than 3 builders

This is almost glitch-free.  I did use the Wild-15 glitch/trick, although just like Tame 20, you don't really need it, I just feel more comfortable using that glitch/trick to get what I needed done.  Using that glitch/trick doesn't result in any terrain modifications that can't be replicated in theory with no glitches and the exact same amount of skills the glitch/trick would've used up.

A closely related challenge, though slightly easier:

Tricky 6:  100% with no climbers, no more than 2 builders

I've got another fewer-builder challenge:

Taxing 18:  Save 98% with just one builder.

This one is actually pretty easy as long as you know the glitch that it takes advantage of.

Note that this is one of those levels in which the solution with the fewest builders is not the one that saves the most lemmings.

It's also pretty easy to guess what you did, since there aren't that many options when you're restricted to just one builder.

What bothered me more was why it works in the first place.  It would suggest that there's a gap in the one-way walls, yet examing the level in LemEdit yields no apparent gaps in the one-way-arrows interactive objects.

But then, by examining the data in the groundXo.dat files (which specify things like where the area of effect of each type of interactive object is located and how big), I finally found the rather surprising answer!  It turns out there is indeed a gap, at least on the PC version!  In fact, the data shows that (see [u]this post[/u] for details), at least for graphics set #2 (Pink), but possibly also the other ones, the last 4 rows of pixels of a one-way-area interactive object are actually ineffective!  (What happens is that the area's location is shifted 4 pixels above where you expect it to be, so in compensation, the 4 rows of pixels above the visible area of the object is still one-way!)

This also probably helps explain why it's possible to seemingly bash through the one-way wall at its bottom in Wild 12, at least on the PC version (haven't checked others).  If my theory is correct, this can potentially affect a lot of other levels as well, including those people made for CustLemm!

"Last 4" means the bottom 4.  Sorry for being unclear.

Hmm, I think I need to emphasize this point a bit more.  It's not that you actually lose 4 rows of pixels of one-way.  It's still 32 rows total per object, just shifted 4 pixels above where it should be.

So since in most cases, a large one-way wall are built by stacking a bunch of one-way objects together with no gaps in between the objects, the 4 pixels of one-way that are ineffective in one object is compensated by the "extra" 4 pixels of one-way from the object immediately below.

Which is why the glitch is restricted pretty much to just the bottom 4 row of pixels of an entire one-way wall.  So perhaps it doesn't affect levels as much as I first imagined, but still something to look out for from now on.

Oooh. That glitch would explain a lot! I had run into this problem with one of my levels and had no idea why the one-way walls were not working. Thanks :)

I used that same OWW trick to save 98% on Wicked 1 in ONML.  The problem can easily be fixed in CustLemm levels, though: Just shift the object down four pixels.

There are just a handful of levels in the original games in which this glitch becomes a factor, though.

Yeah, I noticed the application in Wicked 1 too, but sadly this seems to about it for the standard Lemmings and ONML games.

Actually, if the terrain is a little different, the trick could potentially be used for Taxing 7 100%, but as it is now, it isn't even close.

I've confirmed the lowest number of builders you can get away with (at least on the PC) and still pass the level:

Mayhem 17:  Save 96% (77/80) using only the following:

2 climbers, 2 blockers, 1 builder, 3 bashers, 2 miners, and 2 diggers

In other words, I have lowered the number of builders down to 1, at the expense of not saving 100%.

This is not the Tame 20 glitch; in fact, I'm fairly sure you will not be able to attain a Tame-20-glitch type of solution, using only one builder, that passes the level even if you're allowed to use all the other skills given.  (But feel free to prove me wrong.)  You certainly won't be able to do it with the fewer number of diggers and miners allowed here.

Instead another glitch is involved.  Actually a fairly spectacular one, which unfortunately I definitely don't want to reveal at the moment.  Somewhat reminiscent of the Tame 20 glitch, but a bit crazier and more powerful.  Don't worry, I will reveal it eventually.  I'll say though that it is generally very hard to apply (much harder to apply than the Tame 20 glitch, for starters).

----------------------------

About the skillset given above:  I'm pretty sure you can trade in a miner in place of one of the diggers (so 3 miners + 1 digger instead of the 2+2 above).  Using a 2nd digger might be slightly easier for timing-precision purposes, but then again it might just be a matter of practice in either case.

About 96%:  conceivably there is a small possibility that you can achieve 97% with this basic solution, but it'd be extremely difficult to plan out a viable setup.  You definitely cannot save more than 97% with this solution idea without using additional builders, barring as yet unknown glitches.

=================

As for a 100% solution using the least number of builders (all glitches allowed), it looks like you need 3 builders, and I do have such a solution in mind involving just the Tame 20 glitch, but I haven't tested it out yet.  If that 3-builder solution works, it is straightforward to convert it into a 2-builder solution that saves 98%.

Given the new glitch I introduced here, I can't definitively rule out a 100% solution using only 2 builders, but it seems quite unlikely to me at the moment.

And finally, it looks like LemSteven's 5-builder solution is indeed the lowest number you can achieve for a glitch-free solution.

I should add that unlike some of the previous glitches, this one actually has the power to potentially affect nearly every lemming out, so indeed the crowd does not take a "conventional" path out when using this glitch.  As I said, it's kinda like Tame 20, although the glitch itself doesn't involve climbers.

Now let's see what it can accomplish on Taxing 4......

I might have thought of another glitch-free solution to Mayhem 17.  It will probably use fewer than 5 builders, but it definitely won't save 100% (It should save 97% if it works).  So 5 is still (and will probably always be) the minimum number of builders for a 100% solution without glitches.  I'll test it out this weekend.

Meanwhile, I may have come across another challenge involving fewer builders (this is actually an extension of one of Ahribar's challenges from earlier in the thread):

Taxing 11:  Save 100% with only 7 builders.

I have not yet verified that this actually works because I don't have Lemmings in my dormitory at school.  Based on what I did to turn the crowd around in Mayhem 17, it looks like it should work, though.  I should be able to find out for sure this weekend.

Yeah, my challenge was nine builders, no climbers. If you allow climbers you can do it with even fewer builders.

(And whatever the minimum is on other versions, it will be one fewer on the Genesis, because there's one less pillar.)

Oh, I originally thought you used a blocker (that was later freed) when dealing with the crowd-control with Mayhem 17.

Now that you reminded me of that other way of builder-free crowd control, I need to review Mayhem 17 to see whether I can lower the number of builders while maintaining 100% and glitch-free, now that I can use one of the blockers elsewhere......

I actually did use a blocker when dealing with the crowd in Mayhem 17, but I don't think it was completely necessary.  It just made the solution easier to pull off. There are two things that I can conceivably see going wrong with Taxing 11:

1. The lemmings break through the right side of the pillar (I used the blocker in Mayhem 17 to decrease the chances of this happening, but I think I got it once without the blocker).
2.  I run out of diggers before completing the level (Slight alterations to the method may prevent this).

Assuming it works (I'll try it out tonight), the solution will use 7 builders, 2 climbers, and several bashers, miners, and diggers.

Update:  The 7-builder solution to Taxing 11 is now confirmed!  It is annoyingly hard to execute correctly, but it's not the worst I've seen.  It took me about 10-15 tries to get it right.  Fortunately, the hardest and most critical part is at the beginning of the level.  My solution used 2 climbers, 7 builders, 1 basher, 4 miners, and 5 diggers, but it's probably doable with only 3 miners.

After lengthy investigation, it looks like the 4-builder 100% glitch-free solution is probably not going to work out the way I wanted.  In short, there are some troubles involving the blockers (both).

However, I think I can downgrade it to a challenge that's still interesting, if strangely specified:

Save 100%, glitch-free, using no more than 6 builders laying out a total of no more than 41 build bricks.

This is not yet confirmed, but I'm definitely planning to confirm it sooner or later.

Note that the build-brick count counts any bricks that has been laid down at some point in the solution, even if the pixels of the brick is later removed.

In case the challenge specification inadvertently includes "backroutes" to the challenge I intended, please PM me your solution to this challenge.

Well, this is a start:

Taxing 4: save 90% (36/40), no more than 6 builders

This is not optimal in a number of ways, although it would be incredibly tedious to find the optimal solution.  5 builders is definitely possible, it just so happens that on my successful try, I needed to use the 6th builder in order to get the correct distance between certain lemmings.  The minimum # of builders possible with this method would probably be around 4, and minimum # lost would probably be around 2 or 3.

I'll try to release a CustLemm level featuring the glitch (the same one previously used in the 1-builder Mayhem 17 solution) sometime next week, along with some hints on how to get it to occur.  Note again that it is an interaction between actions of 2 lemmings.

I've now confirmed it, so it's official:

Mayhem 17: save 100% using no glitches, no more than 6 builders laying out a total of no more than 41 build bricks

It should be possible to refine the challenge to 5 builders and 41 bricks.  I'll confirm that later in the future.

Although there is no way to enforce the number of build bricks used in a level, the terrain can be changed to enforce the solution.

Actually, I take that back for now.  It occurs to me with simple modification of how the crowd is trapped, I can trap them so that they don't mill around all over the place while certain key players are at work.  Not only does this makes certain moves much easier to deal with, but it also potentially alleviates one of the blocker issues.  I'm still unsure about the other blocker issue though, but overall it's looking more hopeful than before.

I think I've figured out what ccexplore's latest Mayhem 17 challenge involves doing, though I'm very surprised that 41 bricks is enough to complete it.  I didn't think it would be possible with anything less than 50.  I'll have to test it out next weekend.

Meanwhile, I have another challenge:

Crazy 8:  Save 100% using 6 builders (the level gives you 7).  Hint:  Contrary to what I previously believed, the "swamp" water area near the middle of the level is clearable with only 2 bridges.

:???: My copy of ONML only has 7 builders on Crazy 8, and the screenshot at home.wanadoo.nl/lemmings-solution also listed only 7 builders available.  Did you mean 6?

Well, be it 6 or 7, the challenge has now been superceded:

Crazy 8:  Save 100% using 4 builders (the level gives you 7)

This is a glitch-free solution.

The key saving comes from the following fact, which sounds rather unbelievable but is absolutely true:  after you get past the "swamp" LemSteven alluded to, there exist a position reachable via just 2 builders, which allows you to bash thru the "cactus" left of the exit without over-bashing past the exit.  You would not expect the basher to stop bashing at where it stops, but it does.

Naturally, that position needs to be pixel-precise both horizontally and vertically.  It will turn out you don't need to start bashing off from a build brick (in fact, you shouldn't).  That should help limit the number of places to try, for those who want to discover it themselves.

Screenshots are available, although again, it might be hard to believe without seeing it in action yourself.

=======================

Aside:  the screenshot in the Lemmings Solution pages for Crazy 8 is inaccurate near the exit area.  The screenshot has a very narrow and somewhat deep pit left of the exit which doesn't exist in the actual level.

Clarify:  what I really meant was "reachable without using more than 2 builders".  You may use whatever non-builder skills you feel necessary to get to the exact horizontal and vertical "magic spot".

Oops.  I did mean 6 -- the level gives you 7.  I just knew that my solution required one less builder than the level gives you.  I mistakenly assumed that the level gives you 8 builders instead of 7. :P

I'll edit my earlier post and check out the 4-builder soution.  My previous solution used 1 builder to hold the crowd, 2 to clear the swamp, 2 to build up to the cactus, and 1 to stop the final basher.

So yes, here's a hint for getting rid of the builder you used to hold the crowd:

A single well-placed mining stroke

In the wake of the recent challenges, here's another one:

Wicked 5:  save 100% using only the following skills:  2 diggers, 1 basher, 1 builder.

(This is glitch-free)

Another challenge from ONML:

Wicked 3:  save 100% using only 3 builders and 2 diggers, nothing else.  So no climbers and not even bashers.

This is obviously not glitch-free, although the glitch used is quite well-known well before I ever posted here.

Screenshots are available.

More ONML challenges:

Wild 19:  save 100% using no more than 7 builders in under 2 minutes

Not glitch-free, but one look at the level and you should know what the solution will be, given earlier challenges on this thread.

Two possible challenges [though rather easy when it comes to "challenges"] for Wicked 14:

Wicked 14: save 100% with no builders
Wicked 14: save 100% with only 1 builder and only 5 other skills.

The first challenge is glitch-free, the second one isn't (but not new glitches).

Challenge for ONML:

Wild 20: save 100% using no more than 3 builders in under a minute

I would argue this is glitch-free, although it's conceivably debatable.

Here's another Tame challenge:

Complete all of tame (with 100%) using a total of 40 skills (I forget the exact number, but I'm sure it was either 39 or 40).  That is an average of 2 skills per level.  Several levels require only one skill, while a few require three or even four.

Many of these "fewest skills" solutions are fairly straightforward, but there are some that require you to plan ahead, and there are a couple that require a small degree of precision.

Looks like it's 40, at least that's the best I could do for now.  Here's an aggregate breakdown of how many levels requires how many skills:

1 skill:  5 levels
2 skills: 11 levels
3 skills: 3 levels
4 skills: 1 level

An exact breakdown of which levels require how many skills is available upon request.

Not exactly a challenge, but I've just noticed (and proven) that all Tame levels except level 20 can be passed using just one type of skill per level.

I was busy working with Crazy 20 tonight, and here's what I came up with:

Crazy 20:  Save 100% using 15 builders.

This might sound like a lot, but remember that the 100% restriction means you can't control the crowd.  You can't use miners or diggers to slow down or hold the crowd, so I doubt that it is possible to reduce this number.  Feel free to try and prove me wrong, though.

Alternatively, save 50% (the minimum) using only 8 builders.

Both of these are glitch-free, but they require some precision.

Hmm, what about Tricky 9 though?

Still, a glitch-free solution is always interesting even if not minimal.

I'd take a look later this week.

What's the minimum builders thus far for Mayhem 25, incidentally? I thought it was nine, but then when I went back and looked at the level yesterday I found a stupidly obvious way to beat it with six. Can our resident experts do better?

I'd also like to know the minimum builders for a solution without floaters; is this nine?

Is this for 100% or merely to pass the level?  just checking.

It wasn't meant to be 100%, but knowing you, you will find a way to get 100% with only nine builders (or maybe one, or none at all)...........  :D

Well, when floaters are allowed, I can get 97% (78/80) with 5 builders on the PC.    I don't see any way to get fewer builders at this point.

The 97% 5-builder solution is glitch-free so it should work on the Mac...why don't I check it out now and see.

=============

As for adding in no floaters and/or 100%, I think I'll leave that for another day.  (The main issue in particular with minimizing builders while keeping 100% is that the level gives rather few non-builder skills, and much of the level is steel.)

I finally have achieved it on the Mac also.

However, in the process I discovered a game-mechanical difference between the Mac and PC.  It's a glitch-free trick (well, it's certainly well known) which works pretty well on the PC, but doesn't seem to work at all on the Mac.  Fortunately, for this level I don't need that trick, and I haven't yet used that trick for any of my PC challenge solutions thus far.

Ooh, interesting! What is the trick? (You can e-mail if you don't want to reveal the secret here.) Really, it's only fair to let me know since, not having a PC version, I'm unlikely to be able to work it out for myself :P

Nope, I just pass the level with 7 builders.  That attempt on the PC was 91% (73/80), although there were 2 avoidable losses so the maximum for that method should be 93% (75/80).

It is a glitch-free solution in a very pure sense, so I'm quite sure it will work on the Mac.  I can verify that later.

Well, it's fairly well known, so I think it'd be okay to talk about it right here.

On the PC, if you mine pretty close to a blocker while facing the blocker, after mining one stroke or so, the blocker will generally turn the miner around.  Basically a miner's analog to the Mayhem 5 trick.

I couldn't get that to work on the Mac though, at least not on flat ground.  My guess would be that the blocker's "field of influence" doesn't extend as far downwards as it does on the PC.  Or maybe the blocker really can never have any effect on miners on the Mac version, though for unmentionable reasons I would find that very surprising.

But in the end I don't really need it on Mayhem 25.  My thought on using it was to setup the terrain so that it's easier to free the blocker later, but it turns out even without the trick, the blocker can still be freed.

Never mind, I look at the level at the Lemmings Solution and find that they don't even give you any diggers or miners, so forget about Tricky 9.

Huh?

Tricky 9 gives you 20 of everything.

No, earlier I was wondering whether the glitch for the builderless solution to Tricky 9 can be applied on Crazy 20.  Because LemSteven mentioned diggers and miners and I haven't studied the level in detail before, I didn't realize there are no miners nor diggers on Crazy 20.  That's all.

Incidentally, are there any hidden icicles on that level?  Looking at the picture it seems like 12 builders should suffice for 100%.

Yeah, I wasn't thinking when I made my original post -- I forgot that the level doesn't give you any miners or diggers.

There are no hidden icicles that I know of, and I see that the picture on The Lemmings Solution uses 12 bridges.  I needed a total of 5 builders to control the crowd, but I also took a more efficient route than the one pictured on The Lemmings Solution, reducing the number by two.  It is always a possibility that I did not find the optimal route, though.

Also, my solution also did not use any blockers.  It may be possible to save a bridge or two if you can somehow place two blockers and then bash underneath them to releace them later on.  This would require a lot of precision, if it is possible at all.

I'd try out the level again and see if I could lower the number, but I just went off to school this morning, and I won't be back home until Friday night.

You are clairvoyant. ;P I just did exactly that (100% w/ 9 builders) on the SNES.

This makes it almost certain that I will be able to do it on the PC also.  The Mac I'll have to check to see.

I used the Wild 15 glitch plus a trick which is a borderline glitch (but not quite a glitch).  The Wild 15 glitch is probably not necessary; with very good timing, you should be able to do that part glitch-free.  It's that other trick/borderline glitch, an essential move to the solution, that I need to check on the Mac.

To avoid confusion, note that the 9-builder 100% solution for Mayhem 25 as mentioned above does use floaters.  I haven't worked on floaterless 100% solution yet.

Also, it turns out I can improve it to:

Mayhem 25: save 100% with no more than 8 builders (floaters still allowed)

Again I've only verified it on the SNES, though it's likely to work on the PC.  Can't say much about the Mac version until I've actually tried it.

It's basically a slight modification of the 9-builder solution.

You should, since I've now confirmed the 12-builder 100% solution on the PC.  Actually, I am truly shocked that you missed this solution!  It's pretty much the most straightforward 100% solution imaginable, and aside from maybe 2 or 3 places where a slight bit of precision is needed, it's not too difficult to execute either.  And it doesn't use any blockers either, in fact, using blockers brings absolutely 0 improvement to the solution.  I suggest paying more attention to the terrain.

I would actually consider this solution a starting point for challenges.  I'll now take a look and see whether I can get it down to 11 builders, which should be the minimum for the method this solution uses.

Now confirmed on the PC.  In fact, now it's my turn to feel slightly stupid.  What I had in mind when I said 11 builders earlier turned out to be unnecessarily complicated; a very simple modification of the 12-builder solution yields a 100% 11-builder solution which is just as easy to execute as the 12-builder solution.  Still glitch-free and no need for blockers.

And I'm almost 100% positive that it will work on the Mac, barring some radical terrain differences.

Now confirmed, 100% on Crazy 20 on the Mac, with no more than 11 builders.

I verified on both the Mac and the PC that you can save the minimum using no more than 7 builders.

Glitch-free solution, although I do need to use a blocker here.

I finally pseudo-verified that you can save 100% with no more than 8 builders on the Mac also.  "Pseudo-verified" because I verified all the key moves independently, but haven't got around to completing the entire solution in one go yet.

It's very tricky on the Mac because it turns out while the trick/borderline glitch does work on the Mac, due to some subtle difference with the terrain-removal mask of the basher, I need to change the setup a little.  In fact, I went thru about 2 or 3 modified setups and was almost ready to give up, but I finally found one that does just what I need.  That's why I settled for pseudo-verification, since it took long enough to find that setup already, I don't want to waste more time for getting the complete, successful run.

It looks to be that way.  I've just verified that you have enough builders to do the "build west" solution on the Mac, despite the water, because of the ability to stretch your builders equally far building left as building right.

I haven't verified the solution in full though, so this is not a total guarantee that the solution is really possible, but it is very likely to be.

One nice thing about the Mac version of the build-west solution, if it works, is that it would be actually glitch-free, unlike the DOS version or the Amiga version of the solution where you need to dig thru some steel.

I have some ideas as to where I might be able to lower the number of builders on Crazy 20.  When I did my 15-builder solution, I didn't have time to search for more efficient routes.  Anyway, ccexplore, you're right that I should have seen a better route.  Still, 15 builders is much better than my previous record, which is over 20.

Meanwhile, I found what is probably the most disturbing glitch solution yet:

Wild 9 -- Pass the level without using any skills at all!

It is pretty obvious what I did here.  It's just disturbing that the level can be so easy.  The worst part is, the problem can be fixed by simply placing the top entrance farther left.  I know for sure that this one cannot be superceded, so don't even try. ;P

Btw, I've only confirmed this on the PC-DOS version, and it barely works.  Terrain or timing differences might make this impossible in other versions.

 I used that glitch in two of my levels.  :-[

Ah, so we finally have an official level where that glitch actually makes a difference.

I'm sure they would've gotten rid of the glitch if they know about it, but clearly they didn't know.  Though, as far as I can tell, the glitch only works on the PC version and nothing else.

I thought this glitch was also shown to work in "No Problemming!" (Crazy 11) Although, yes, it doesn't make a difference here. I mean.. it doesn't even have a puzzle *really*, and it doesn't make anything easier. So.. ignore this comment :)

Well, I guess I wasn't counting Crazy 11 since you still end up using the same number of skills.

But I'm wrong anyway, I forgotten that you can also apply the glitch in Fun 8 for a 100% solution that uses only 3 skills and no blockers, so I guess that's also a difference too.

Still, Wild 9 is probably the level where the glitch's effect is so dramatic, since it renders the level almost trivial.

Speaking of Crazy 11, I have confirmed that the level is indeed possible losing only one lemming (1/2 -- 50%).

As for Wild 9, the only difficulty in the nuke glitch solution comes from timing.  The relatively high release rate means you have a very small time window in which you can nuke the level and end up passing.  If you nuke too early, the first lemming blows up before exiting, but you can't nuke after the second lemming appears, or you'll only save 50%.

Although harder to execute correctly, I find the nuke glitch solution to be much less tedious than the regular solution, which requires nearly two minutes of simply building bridges.  The nuke glitch solution takes less than ten seconds!

That being said, much of the 100% Taxing 6 solution can be adapted to work on the Mac, resulting in a 98% solution instead of 100% (ie. you lose 1).  Basically you substitute the non-working steel-destruction glitch with a different steel-destruction glitch that still works on the Mac.

This solution is in jeopardy on the Mac version.  At the very least, it turns out that when using the Wild-15 glitch in conjunction with the actual trick that enables the solution, what results will not work on the Mac--the Wild-15 glitch causes some problems with the "actual trick".  (Sorry I can't be more specific.)

I did mention though that in theory you don't need the Wild-15 glitch, and I think by not letting the Wild-15 glitch get involved, the "actual trick" that does the real work could still work on the Mac.  But at the very least, this makes the 3-builder Taxing 10 solution super-tricky on the Mac.  I'm not going to touch this one for a while.

For the same reason that the 77/80, no-build-west Mayhem 29 challenge is affected, on the Mac you need 4 builders rather than 3 for this Wicked 3 challenge.  Still don't need climbers and bashers though, and the solution remains almost identical.

It was tough not posting here for almost a day, but now that I got one of Ahribar's requested MIDIs out of the way, back to my "new favorite toy" I come.  ;P

So, the news:

Wild 15:  sadly, it looks like 48/50 might not be achievable on the Mac.  Why?  Well, recall how I said on the PC, there are 3 different ways you can handle the final obstacle and get 47/50.

Well, on the Mac, it turns out that two of the ways doesn't work.  The only method that works is the glitch-free, "guest-inspired" method.  And no one has yet successfully adapted that solution to 48/50 at this point, so until then the best you can do on the Mac is 47/50 (which I still haven't confirmed on the Mac btw).

You might think that it's the steel area at the final obstacle that's causing the problems.  But actually, the failures are not caused by the steel.  For details, e-mail or PM me a solution and I'll tell you exactly how and why it fails on the Mac.

=========================

Havoc 10:  17/21 confirmed on the Mac.  Though interestingly, I needed to modify the solution to get it to work on the Mac.  In fact, for a while I was almost going to give up and declare a 16/21 for the Mac version.

What happens is, on the PC version, if you have lemming #1 mine at a certain location and make #2 a floater as soon as he appears, it's possible that when #2 catches up with #1, #1 has mined down just enough to allow #2 to past thru the first trap without triggering it.

But on the Mac version, possibly due to subtle differences in the high-resolution terrain-removal mask for the miner, that doesn't work; I can't get #2 to not trigger the trap.

Fortunately, what save the day is another PC/Mac difference.  Recall how, when I discussed the PC solution, I said using a digger is not suitable for carrying out the blocker's role for the miner glitch?  Well, it turns out on the Mac version, unlike the PC version, you can also use a digger to carry out the miner glitch, besides using the exploder as in the PC version.  The digger will turn immediately into a faller without removing any terrain.

This in turn leaves an exploder unused, which you can then use later in the solution to release the crowd.  This in turn frees up a digger you can use in the beginning.  I then used it by having #1 dig 4 times before mining.  With that, #2 is able to get past the first trap without triggering it.

A few new ONML challenges:

Wild 3: save 100% using no blockers, no more than 6 builders.

I've only confirmed this on the Mac, but it's a glitch-free solution so it should work on the PC also.

------------

Wild 6: save 100% in under a minute using no more than 1 builder

I've confirmed this on both the PC and the Mac.  It's glitch-free, and really, not too challenging to figure out.
Truly a "quicky" challenge.  ;P

-----------

Wild 17: save 100% using no more than 2 builders

I've confirmed this on both the PC and the Mac, but it turns out slightly different solutions are needed on each version, mainly due to the difference in steel detection (and possibly the positioning of the steel areas differ slightly between the two versions).  On both versions it is not a glitch-free solution, although it uses glitches that are either well-known or I've already discussed explicitly.

I've yet to find a glitch-free way to save 100% using only 2 builders.

I found another level in which the Mayhem 12/Havoc 11 glitch works.

Wicked 13:  Save 100% with 12 builders.

This is the lowest number I've worked out so far without losing anybody.  It may be possible to lower the number some, though.  I may be able to get it down to 11, or even 10, with some slight alterations to my method.  I'll check it out this weekend.  I doubt that less than 10 will be possible, but feel free to prove me wrong.

If you're wondering why the number seems so high, it's because of those *&%@ chains.  I have to bash after every few bricks, or the builder will hit a chain and turn around.

Mayhem 12/havoc 11/wicked 13......ah, I think I know what that is (does it invlove going through steel?). I found that glitch while playing one of Conway's levels. For some reason I didn't check the Lemmings/ONML levels to see if it could help. X_X

Good job! :thumbsup:

However, you are not quite correct about the chains, as my improvement on your challenge shows:

Wicked 13:  save 100% with no more than 11 builders and no more than 2 bashers (no restrictions on other tools, though I can tell you no climbers nor floaters were used)

You might want to consider relaxing it to "no more than 3 bashers" first.  In my 2 bashers solution, the way I avoided the use of a certain basher is, while not exactly glitchy, still somewhat unusual.

I have only confirmed on the PC so far, I'll do the Mac version later tonight.  Whether it works on the Mac version or not mostly depends on whether there are undesirable differences between the Mac's hi-res terrain and the PC/Amiga's low-res terrain.

As for 10 builders, that might be possible on the PC, but probably not on the Mac version.

Actually, just to highlight how efficiently skill-wise you can deal with the chains, let me disclose the exact amount of skills used:

3 blockers, 11 builders, 2 bashers, 3 diggers

Though, now that I think of it, maybe 2 blockers is enough.  Anyhow.

My idea for an 11-builder solution does use the chains to my advantage.  I was complaining because the chains got in the way of my original 12-builder solution.  If there were fewer chains, 10 builders would easily be possible.

Also, I'm surprised that you needed 3 blockers to achieve 11 builders.  My 12-builder solution used only one blocker.  Good job anyway, though. :thumbsup:

So how many bashers did you use for your 12-builder solution?

I probably could get by with just 2 blockers, and so if I were to use 12-builders I could eliminate another blocker as well.

I believe that I used all 5 bashers in my 12-builder solution.  Anyway, I did manage to achieve an 11-builder solution using only one blocker.  Unfortunately, the basher I used to remove the blocker went the wrong way.  As a result, he bashed through a chain and was eventually lost.  I ended up saving 98% instead of 100%, but I know that 100% is possible using that method (assuming my basher goes the right way).

I haven't had much luck with a 10-builder solution, unfortunately.  What I originally thought would be a 10-builder solution turned out to be an 11-builder solution.  I ended up having to use a builder in a place that I originally didn't think it would be necessary.

This doesn't mean that I am completely ruling out a 10-builder solution, though -- It may still be possible by some other method.

I found that I can indeed eliminate not just the blocker, but one digger as well, so my 11-builder solution on the PC is actually doable with the following skills:

2 blockers, 2 bashers, 11 builders, 2 diggers

The change turns out to be just a matter of where to start building.

I'm now going to try the Mac version and see.

It seems a little strange to me that you still end up freeing the blocker even though your basher went the wrong way? :???: Just don't have the right picture in my mind for this.

Now that I think of it, I used a digger to free the blocker on that particular attempt, then I made him bash in order to stop digging.  Had he gone right, he would have bashed air and stopped.  Instead, he went left, and was eventually lost as a result.

Anyway, I've now confirmed this after an hour of frustration:

Wicked 13:  Save 100% with 10 builders B)

This is extremely difficult to pull off, as it requires pixel-perfect precision in several places.  I needed 1 climber, 1 blocker, 10 builders, 4 bashers, and 1 digger.

Confirmed on Mac.  Solution plays out completely identically to PC version.

Now to see what I can do with LemSteven's 10 "digger" ;P solution.  In particular whether 4 bashers are really needed.

Oops.  I meant 10 builders. ;P Sorry about that (Edited earlier post).

I believe that I could have done the level with 3 bashers, btw.  I used an extra one early in the level in order to make things easier later on.

But before that, I ended up making minor improvements to the 11-builder solution:

1 blocker, 3 bashers, 11 builders, 1 digger

So one more basher than before, but in total 1 less skill used.  I suppose I should confirm it on the Mac, but I figure the 10-builder solutions would be more interesting anyway, so maybe later on this if requested.

Just to be clear, I did confirm the above on the PC, just not the Mac.

Now, onto 10 builders or less......

Turns out LemSteven's 10-builder solution is actually not too different from the 11-builder solution mentioned above.  Unfortunately, it does look like the 3 bashers, 1 digger and 1 climber are all needed.

So looks like time to move onto fewer than 10 builders, although such solutions likely will only work on the PC version if at all.  I guess I can verify the 10-builder solution on the Mac first though.

Ok, I now have evidence that you can save 100% on Wicked 13 with no more than 9 builders.

I said "evidence" because my attempt was screwed up in a number of places.  First, I used 2 more builders than intended, because I failed to build at the intended places (basically, the same frustration LemSteven went thru when confirm the 10-builder solution, except I didn't feel like starting over).  Second, at the beginning I accidentally lost one.  And I probably used more skills towards the end than really necessary (but fortunately there was enough).

Still, the solution idea definitely will work.  It is actually just the 10-builder solution with a different way to deal with the "ending".  No differences until after you got past the application of the Mayhem 12 glitch.

--------------------

As for the Mac, with great difficulty (it's very hard to do precision moves on it reliably), I managed to confirm the 10-builder solution.

Although earlier I said that the 9-builder solution is probably PC-specific, I'm beginning to think that might not necessarily be the case.  In particular, since the glitch for the builderless Tricky 9 seems to work to some extent on the Mac......

Still, I don't think I'm even going bother with the Mac until I actually confirm the 9-builder solution for real on the PC first.

I have now confirmed that you can save 100% with no builders on the Mac version of Tame 14.

Basically I just used the Tame 20 glitch, although setting it up properly on Tame 14 can sometimes be a little less straightforward.

I actually think you can also have a builderless 100% solution that uses no glitches, although that would be very difficult to execute, so I'm going to leave that alone for a while.

Then is now!  I finally found a way to adapt the "guest-inspired" 47/50 solution for 48/50, and so I have now confirmed on the Mac that it's possible to achieve 48/50 on Wild 15.  (The solution should also work on the PC.)

Although the "guest-inspired" 47/50 is glitch-free, I need to use the bomberless Mayhem 2 glitch for the 48/50.  Previous experience with adapting the solution to 48/50 suggests that you probably have to use that glitch to get a working solution.  In any case it certainly makes life much easier.

Ok, 9-builder solution for Wicked 13 finally confirmed on PC.  I got lucky with the LemSteven half of the solution, that went without a hitch.

My guess is that you won't have enough skills to lower the number of builders further down, but feel free to prove otherwise.

I'll leave the Mac version for some other weekend, although I think it has a good chance of working on that version also, though more difficult.

Oooo...On the genesis it is possible to do any of the "We All Fall Down" levels with only 3 diggers. Take that as a challenge. If you want to rip your hair out because of genesis handling.......try doing Mayhem 30 (Lemmings' Ark) without the basher.

Well, I did Lemmings' Ark without the basher in the remake for Cheapo by Isu (StyleTrial I - level 30); in fact, I found this backdoor before I found the intended solution.
Due to some sketching I noticed that it is also possible for the Genesis, but there you have to be precise by one pixel, for Cheapo there were two pixels working.

Good job! :thumbsup: But why 3?

On the Mac I just confirmed that you can do it with only 2 diggers, I would think that the same is true on the Genesis as well.

Interestingly (though not too surprising, given previous experience), it doesn't work on the PC version.  I'll try other versions later.

Interestingly, I just tried the Genesis version and found that its behavior is not quite the same as the Mac version, and then since you can't change the RR while pausing in the Genesis version, it looks like you really do need 3 diggers there.

I think I should revisit the DOS version again actually......

I'm wrong.  Although you still can't change the RR while pausing in the Genesis version, I found that if you pause the game at the earliest moment allowed, then unpause and raise RR immediately, you can raise the RR high enough to allow a 2-digger solution.

It's still the case though that the Genesis version's digger seem to be subtlely different from the Mac version in behavior.  I don't know for sure yet whether the DOS version is one of the two behaviors or a distinct third.

Looks like a distinct third.  Neither solution works on the DOS version.

Good job. I gave up after a while because I couldn't seem to pause it early enough....



I should modify the challenge: no mice. (you can't use a mouse)

Wow!  That supercedes my previous challenge at the beginning of this thread, wich allows 1/4 of the diggers given, by a lot!  Good job!  :thumbsup:

I've also got another builder challenge:

Havoc 19:  Complete the level using only 3(!) builders.

This requires lots of precision, but it's not as bad as the 9-builder solution to Wicked 13.  Also, most of the precision comes at the very beginning of the level.  No-builder crowd control is required, and this is difficult to execute because you only have a small area to work with.  This is glitch-free, btw.

Here's a small hint:  Stay in the top 1/3 of the level.

Um, that doesn't really make sense for either the Genesis or Cheapo version.  Clarify?

I meant you can only do the challenge on the Genesis.

A quick update for two other versions I've tried:

SNES:  3 diggers is possible.  As for 2 diggers, not even close, the RR don't go up fast enough

Amiga:  3 diggers is possible.  But intriguingly, as for 2 diggers, it is close but not quite, I think the RR needs to be just slightly higher.  If the second lemming is 1 pixel closer to the first lemming, I think 2 diggers would've been possible on the Amiga, but I have no luck achieving it, so maybe 2 diggers is impossible on the Amiga.

So it looks like the PC/DOS version stands unique in that the solution fundamentally doesn't work.

Aside:  the reason the 2-/3-digger solution works is also the reason why guest's 47/50 solution for Wild 15 will fail on the Amiga and Mac versions of ONML.

Could you PM me how you do that? Maybe because my brain is worn out but I can't see how you can do it with only diggers and nothing to stop them from going right through, and even at 99 RR I can't see how to do it.

Also, you've been grinding down the amount of Lemmings you can lose throughout Lemmings and ONML (I think) and then saying to pass levels with only a few skills. Maybe as another challenge you could try to see how fast you can complete each level/difficulty in those games? Just a thought, don't kill me if you've thought of it before. ^^

Sure, I can PM you about the We All Fall Down solutions.

It's true that I haven't focused much on minimizing time.  I still haven't even tried LemSteven's challenge of saving 100% in under 2 minutes for "And then There were Four".  I'll try to do more in the future, although it's only really interesting if it requires doing the level in ways not usually considered.  That is, there needs to be something more than merely figuring out how early you can release the crowd.

Well I was just thinking that the fastest time is not always going to be the way that saves the most Lemmings, plus there's a fair few glitches around that can be expoited, even though I don't know most of them. =P

Take Fun 2 for example, the fastest time you could do that in would be to make the first Lemming a floater and let the rest die, that way you would still pass the level and in a much faster time than you can saving all 10 Lemmings. Of course that's a simple example and even that can be refined by cranking up the RR and making the first Lemming a floater right at the bottom of the fall, but it's just to illustrate my point.

The RR shouldn't affect the first lemming in the slightest.

No it shouldn't and doesn't, but if you don't raise the release rate and leave it at 50 then the first Lemming makes it home before the rest of the Lemmings are killed so even though you've saved enough Lemmings to pass the level, it still isn't over. If you raise the RR from the start up to about 80 or so, the last 9 Lemmings will all die before the first Lemming makes it to the exit.

Doesn't it count to press ESC after the first lemming exits?

new challenge:  pass Havoc 5 without builders

I would argue this is glitch-free, or at most borderline glitchy.  Actually, switching the order of 2 moves will make it completely glitch free, if it still works with the order switched (probably does, but I find it easier with my order).

[quote author=LemSteven
Lemmings
Fun 6 – A task for blockers and bombers: Save 90% (or more) using only 1 bomber and 3 blockers (Thanks to Insane Steve for finding this one).


How you do this?


thanks

Two blockers either side of the trapdoor, so that all lemmings are in the same place. Explode one blocker.

As the lemmings walk on the lower level, block as they hit the pillar, and it is actually possible to force them through it.

I forgot to mention that this solution might not be possible on the Mac.  Certainly I haven't gotten it to work on the Mac so far, due to differences related to the Mac version being high-resolution.

Completely unexpected, but I've improved the record:

Wicked 7: Save 95% (76/80)

Thanks to Leviathan for, well, inspiration I guess you could say.  This should also give you a rough idea about the glitch.  I suppose I should also thank the terrain, because even with the glitch, this is barely possible.

I'm debating with myself whether or not to show some screenshots (PM only though), notably the "after" one.  I'm thinking that it might be sufficiently well disguised so that it's not immediately obvious what I actually did.  With so few skills given, the very fact that I mention the word "Leviathan" is probably enough for some of you to figure it out without evenseeing a screenshot.  Anyway, I probably will end up being selective about who to show to. :devil:

Oh yeah, let's see......this makes the ONML total 84.

P.S.  This is the DOS version, I'll try the Mac version later.

Confirmed on Mac version with screenshots.  It's the exact same solution as the DOS version.

I also went ahead and confirmed the same solution on the Amiga version.

Can someone describe the glitch in Tame 20 that you guys are using to reach places without using builders? And also explain how to beat Classic 7 in Lemmings 2 without using bombers?

I still haven't managed to execute the Tame 20 glitch, but I do know the Classic 7 trick.  Here's a hint: (highlight to read)

If lemmings get caught inside a wall, they will climb up to the top, even if they aren't climbers.  This can be achieved by placing a blocker next to the steel to the right of the entrance and then building over him so that the lemmings fall to his right.

****************************************

Recently, I have been working on maximizing my scores in Lemmings Revolution.  I am basically replaying every level in the whole game, and recording the highest scores I can come up with.  I have a ways to go yet, so it will be at least a couple of weeks before I can post all of my high scores.

I'm creating a list of where the lemmmings are lost in the Genesis version. So far I've completeed fun and tricky.
(100% if not listed)

Fun 3: 47/50
Fun 6: 48/50
Fun 18: 65/70
Tricky 15: 7/10
Tricky 16: 45/50
Tricky 17: 48/50
Tricky 18: 9/10
Tricky 21: 48/50
Tricky 22: 99/100
Tricky 23: 79/100*
Tricky 25: 10/100*

These scores are just what I got, and could use improvement. Tricky 12 was really hard btw.

* = could be improved a lot

How on Earth did you do Tricky 12 losing no Lemmings? More over, how did you do Tricky 21 losing only 2? O_O

The game mechanics are a bit different, which is why I did all of them.

Here's Taxing:

Taxing 13: 48/50
Taxing 14: 48/50
Taxing 16: 99/100
Taxing 17: 48/50
Taxing 19: 65/70
Taxing 25: 79/80
Taxing 26: 99/100
Taxing 27: 49/50

@Deathman48: Tricky 21 was pretty hard, but nothing compared to 12. 21 wasn't that hard to think of but it was a bit tricky to execute. 12 was hard to think of and somewhat tricky to execute as well (it would have been much harder without savestates). I can get screenshots if you want.

A screenshot or explanation be nice, in PM if you don't want to spoil it for anyone else.

And if I didn't have save states some levels I'd never have been able to do without tearing my hair out. =P

Most of the levels that seem similar have small differences. Here are all the game mechanical differences that I can think of now:
1) You can't change the RR instantly.
2) Pausing at the beginning doesn't change when the lemmings come out.
3) Both sides of the level act as walls.
4) A digger has two pixels on each side that don't support him.
5) There is no "right click to select only walkers" function.
6) The mayhem 12 glitch doesn't work.
7) OWWs are where they appear to be.
8) There can be up to 100 lemmings. (obviously only affects some levels)
9) A builder turns around when he hits his head on the top of the level, and I think it happens 1 or 2 pixels lower.

EDIT: This is compared to DOS, I don't know about the Amiga.

EDIT2: While I was playing through tricky 21 I made a lemming slide through some terrain again, but this time I got it to happen several times (thanks to savestates). So this time I observed exactly how the sliding lemming looked, and I figured out how to trigger it. It makes sense considering what I know about the game mechanics, and it seems so obvious now that I know what it is...
Leviathan, I can PM you about it if you want.

Right and left sides of Trcicky 21.
Tricky 12

Mayhem and Present:

Mayhem 2: 99/100
Mayhem 5: 76/80
Mayhem 14: 48/50
Mayhem 19: 47/50
Mayhem 29: 84/100
Present 2: 43/50
Present 16: 98/100

[colo=#000000]Hmm, good points, although that doesn't seem to affect the Fun and Tricky levels you listed.

#5 is interesting because the A button does seem to act kinda like the right mouse button (when holding down the A, the cursor will register the walker instead of the lemming with a skill), but nothing happens if you press the C button while the A button is held down.

I'm surprised about the Mayhem 12 glitch not working, I'll have to check that out myself, and especially Taxing 21 (or whatever the "Feel the Heat" level is at).

Isn't #3 true for the DOS version as well?  What happens with the right wall in the DOS version?

#1,2,4,7 and 8 also holds for the Amiga version.  I don't know anything about #9.

So I guess #6 and #9 were the same. It's interesting that you mentioned the right wall for #3 because that is exactly what's different. If you build into it the lemming will simply go off the screen and fall when he's done building (you can see that in the mini map).

The complete list:

[EDITED]

Improved:
Tricky 23
Tricky 25
Present 2

100% on cascade was much easier than I expected, but maybe that's just because of savestates.

I've been trying for the last two hours too get 2/4 on Sunsoft 27, and I conclude that it's impossible. One of the traps is just one pixel too far to the left. [smiley=XD.gif]

An off-hand list of levels to look for improvements on; I don't have time to try these myself at the moment.

22 Tricky: 100%? (possible on other versions)
23 Tricky: lose 1? (possible on other versions)
13 Taxing: lose 1? (possible on the ONML version of the level)
16 Taxing: 100%? (possible on other versions)
26 Taxing: 100%? (possible on other versions)
27 Taxing: 100%? (I seem to remember this being doable)

Yeah, I discovered that a while ago myself, but not being able to select a Lemming using that was annoying, some levels could have been easier to execute if there was a way to select a walker Lemming. I think the game works on that in a crowd it will select whichever Lemming came out of the hatch first, but that isn't always helpful. I think tseug may have just been posting his own records on the levels by the way, but I'll comment on them.

"22 Tricky: 100%? (possible on other versions)"

I'm not sure that's possible, I can't find a way to delay the Lemmings long enough to complete the bridge at the end both ways. The RR of 88 is to high for me to do it, don't know about anyone else but 20 bridges seems too few to adequately delay enough Lemmings.

"23 Tricky: lose 1? (possible on other versions)"

That is possible here according to ccexplore though I've never tried the method myself.

"13 Taxing: lose 1? (possible on the ONML version of the level)"

How on Earth do you do that? =/

"16 Taxing: 100%? (possible on other versions)"

Yeah, that's possible here. I've not done it myself but I have seen a screenshot of the method used and I don't think any version differences interfere with the method.

"26 Taxing: 100%? (possible on other versions)"

That's possible I'm sure, I'm pretty sure I got all the Lemmings home when I first completed this level.

"27 Taxing: 100%? (I seem to remember this being doable)"

I can't get this one to work but with a few adjustments of about a pixel each it may be possible. When using a bridge at the end to make the fall survivable, I can't get it so that they survive the second fall. But it might work, never thought to try this method until I read your post there. ^^;

On second thoughts, lose 1 on 13 Taxing is very likely impossible, since the Genesis version doesn't allow RR changes while paused.

Here's how it's done on Mac ONML: RR 80 right at the start, make the first lemming a bomber as soon as he emerges, return RR to 1. First lemming digs just before the pillar. Second lemming digs one pixel further on, releasing the first digger. Immediately make the second lemming block. Make the first lemming (who is now walking again) dig as soon as he returns to ground level after the dig pit -- then when he explodes he will release the blocker.

I think ccexplore found a slightly different solution on one of the other versions.

As for 22 Tricky, have you tried a vertical bridge wall?

All those possible improvements seem reasonable, but the only one I've had a chance to try is Taxing 27.

That does no good, the bridge wall (if you mean 4 bridges next to each other) only stops Lemmings going in the other direction, you want to stop Lemmings that are going in the same direction as the first one.

A vertical bridge wall is several bridges stacked on top of each other. It is much easier with savestates.

Ah yes, I get what you mean. Have the first step at the same position of each bridge so that you basically make a wall that the Lemmings can't pass. I see what you mean about that being easier with save states.

I'm working on a 100% solution to mayhem 2. Executing it is like trying to knock a planet out of orbit with a walnut, so don't expect me to finish it soon.

I got Taxing 16. :)

While I was trying Tricky 23 I found out that the miner glitch activates automatically when the miner reaches the bottom of the level. Does this happen in DOS?

Getting closer on Tricky 23... there was a leak. It may be impossible without the "walkers only" function.

arrr... Taxing 13 has been boarded! The RR increased too slowly for Ahribar's method to work, so I used a different one. It was pretty hard, and barely worked.

The total number lost is now 79.

What was your solution to Taxing 13?

It sounds like you know what I'm going to do for Mayhem 2. What are you thinking of? btw I almost got it, but I ran out of builders.

The miner glitch activates without using a blocker or bomber.

Actually, now that I recall better, I think my DOS solution ends up requiring an even more extreme RR change than Ahribar's, so never mind about that.  There would possibly also issues with not being able to right-click select on the Genesis version.  I'll have to rethink that level a little bit for the Genesis version.


I'm guessing you're thinking of that glitch that you finally figured out recently, that can [highlight]send lemmings up very fast.[/highlight]

You're right about Mayhem 2.
The climber trick doesn't work, lose 3 looks like the minimum for Tricky 23. I give up unless you can find something.

YESSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!! 100% on Mayhem 2. [smiley=laugh.gif] [smiley=laugh.gif] [smiley=laugh.gif]
I used all the builders, but I didn't really need to. I can't imagine doing that without savestates...

I remember observing that phenomenon (though not in the context of a challenge) a couple of times in the Mac version.

First try Mayhem 10, it might be possible to save 100%. ;)

[smiley=laugh.gif] Thanks, it was hard.

Screenshots:
before the glitch (before they popped up)
near the end (and after)
crowd control (5 builders to set up, 1 to release)

----------------

It takes too long to set up in Mayhem 10, the best I got was lose 4.

The spreading out is almost perfect: 93 lemmings at the back condensed into a point, and a fairly evenly spaced group in front. I got that set up by releasing the crowd at different times until it worked, that would be hard without savestates. :-/ And notice that the solution involves a lot of waiting, and so far as I know, there is no fast forward in DOS. The most difficult parts occur between 4 and 5 minutes in, ugly with no savesttates. :-/ There are plenty of other difficult parts in between.

-----------------

WHOA!!!!! What's with the miner in the SNES?? Every other step is a pixel longer, and the first stroke only goes down 1 pixel!

Savestates would be good. To me it looks like the cimbers hit their heads much lower in the Genesis version.

I managed lose 2 on Tricky 23. I don't see any more possible improvements, this is probably as good as it gets.

Fun 3: 47/50
Fun 6: 48/50
Fun 18: 65/70

Tricky 15: 7/10
Tricky 16: 46/50
Tricky 17: 48/50
Tricky 18: 9/10
Tricky 21: 49/50
Tricky 23: 98/100

Taxing 13: 49/50
Taxing 14: 49/50
Taxing 17: 48/50
Taxing 19: 65/70
Taxing 25: 79/80

Mayhem 5: 76/80
Mayhem 14: 48/50
Mayhem 19: 47/50
Mayhem 29: 84/100

Present 2: 44/50
Present 16: 98/100

Sunsoft 6: 54/60
Sunsoft 22: 49/50
Sunsoft 24: 49/50
Sunsoft 27: 1/4

Total lost: 77

On the SNES lemmings can build all the way up to 3 pixels below the top of the level. [smiley=shocked.gif]

I worked out a 100% solution for Highland 10 - "Eat my Shrapnel!!" for the PC/Dos version yesterday.
If I didn't miss something, there has no solution for 100% PC/DOS version been known for now.

Screenshots/explaination available per PM or e-mail.

In fact, my solution doesn't even need the ballooner.
It needs no precision, only some quite exact timing once.
Actually I thought first I'd need the ballooner, not too accurately but for a long time in the air at a certain position while doing some other things, which was made a lot harder due to the impossibility of getting the wind icon after unpausing. But looking at the skill bar I noticed a very easy way to avoid that.

I wouldn't call it a glitch used, it's just an intended feature acting a little unexpectedly.

It took a while, but I finally got a new record out of this new approach!  Thanks to tseug for alerting me at a second look at the level (come to think of it, all my recent records were spawned by other people's observations and comments ;)):

Mayhem 10:  save 97% (73/75, lose 2) on the PC/DOS version

I cannot conceive of any further improvements to the level barring some unknown new glitch.

This uses the same glitch that tseug has used brilliantly for the 100% solution to Mayhem 2 on the Genesis (which hopefully I'll confirm someday on the PC), plus a semi-known glitch with a slight twist.  Surprisingly, it's actually tricky to work out what to do after you have the landing place established, you'd be surprised by the amount of skills this solution takes up.  It took a while before I finally settled on the correct approach to go from merely having a landing place to a full, working solution.  Here's a hint (highlight to read):  [highlight]The end result actually looks partly like how one would've normally solve this level.[/highlight]

Since it's been such a long time since my last record on DOS Lemmings, here's a summary again of the current records for that game:

Fun 3: lose 3
Fun 6: lose 2
Fun 18: lose 5
Tricky 15: lose 3
Tricky 16: lose 4
Tricky 17: lose 2
Tricky 18: lose 1
Tricky 23: lose 1
Taxing 7: lose 1
Taxing 19: lose 5
Taxing 27: lose 3
Taxing 28: lose 15
Mayhem 2: lose 1 (hopefully in the future this will become 100% saved instead)
Mayhem 5: lose 4
Mayhem 10: lose 2
Mayhem 19: lose 3
Mayhem 26: lose 4
Mayhem 29: lose 3

Total lost:  62 (and hopefully 61 in the future)

This lose 2 solution for DOS Mayhem 10 does not carry over directly to the Amiga or SNES versions, because a subtle difference in the basher's mask leads to some timing differences, plus on those versions you can't change RR instantaneously.  I haven't tried the Mac version either, but again it hinges on details of the basher's mask on that version.

That being said, I believe the solution could be modified and adapted to work on those versions also, but I'll leave that for some other day.  Note that the Mayhem-2 glitch itself has been confirmed to work on all aforementioned versions of the game.

Very cool!

When you try the Mac's Mayhem 10, will you also post a list like the above one for the current best records on the Mac version? I'd like to try some of them when I have time.... not that I have any notion when that will be.

Glad to hear the MIDIs haven't been forgotten! I was wondering.....

[smiley=thumbsup.gif] WOO, nice! I'll have to try that, I thought of another possible aproach.

:D :D Thats easy! You can do it with 1 digger and 1 miner!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;D :D ;) :) O_o

I achieved lose 11 on Taxing 28 (SNES). I think the old record was lose 15 but correct me if I'm wrong. It looks possible to lose 10, I was a bit sloppy.

I managed lose 10. If lose 9 is possible it will certainly be hard...

The only way I can think of getting lose 9 wouldn't work on the SNES, but it might in DOS. That means no savestates...

I managed to do that without losing any... Well, on the Game Boy version, and they're both seemingly alike.

I'll have a look at the others later.

Maybe savestates aren't needed that much because all the precision is at the beginning. It's still a lot though: lose 10 requires pixel precision in 4 places, lose 9 in roughly 7 (if it works). I won't post screenshots because it sounds like you want to figure it out yourself. The same trick might work on Mayhem 19 on the Genesis, I'll try it later.

I should try the NES...

EDIT: Could someone remind me of all the levels like Taxing 28 (SENS/DOS) and Mayhem 19 (Genesis ?

If you just post the screenshots as links, I don't have to see them myself, so go ahead if you want.  Though at this point I think I know what you did anyway.

And given that my lose 15 solution was a pain in the behind to do, I doubt your solutions can be any worse. ;)


I'm afraid it won't work, since as far as I know, [highlight]you can't push yourself inside a wall using builders alone.[/highlight].

That is exactly what I did, it would work on any level like that.

screenshot

I meant Mayhem 29. Oops!

It doesn't help Mayhem 29. It takes too long and there aren't enough builders.

It looks possible to save 100% on Taxing 17 (Genesis) with the Mayhem 2 trick. In this case it would be much harder than Mayhem 2 because everything would have to be lined up perfectly. I might try it.... [smiley=winktounge.gif]

The NES sure is weird!

There are certain places where a lemming will build 16 steps, 8 steps, or just shrug. What the... [smiley=huh2.gif]

Oh wow, a glitch: A lemming can climb up a wall when there is a miner hole in it! [smiley=huh2.gif]

A lemming mined a hole in a wall, and then another lemming climbed up the wall, going staight over the hole. I gues it makes sense but it sure looked weird!

How did you save 100% on Fun 16?

Ok I see it now. I tried a slightly different version of that (different way of turning around) but the lemming just wouldn't build into the wall. Thanks for the savestate. Evidently I use a different rom but it still loaded (but it wouldn't run, and the lemmings were blobs).

Another glitch: If a lemming falls, then lands next to a wall and builds on impact, he will get stuck.

Another glitch, but not that useful: When a lemming is assigned a skill while going down a steep slope like the one in Taxing 10 (just like mary poppins), it will take effect at the bottom.

Now this is a glitch: A lemming can go through a blocker (The blocker is completely ignored!) by building/bashing/mining/digging within the same cell. The skill will be performed in the usual place.

Taxing 25 does the same thing for me. The ROMs are the same size so now I'm not so sure if they are different. Maybe I have a slightly different emulator.

The ROMs are the same.

I'm on Mayhem 19, oh noes.......
Now I'm on Mayhem 23, ohnoes again.......

Myhem 19 certainly used the most savestates so far.
I haven't really tried Mayhem 23 it just looks threatening.

The only difference speed would make is how fast the game goes. Everything in the game would be proportional to the original, even if the speed was a bit off.

Yippee!  I finally got ccexplore's Tame 20 trick to work in the PC/DOS version! ;D

Using it, I've come up with a couple more fewer-builder challenges:

Save 100% on both Fun 21 and Tricky 11 without any builders.

Unfortunately, I don't have either the GameBoy or the NES versions of Lemmings, so I can't help you guys look for more records.

I haven't had much time recently to work with Revolution, but I will next week.  I've got final exams this week, so I've been pretty busy.  Fortunately, I have a 3-week vacation after this week for Christmas, so I'll have time to work with it then.

Currently, I've gone through about 2/3 of the game, and it is possible to save everybody on the majority of the levels that I've done.  Some of my solutions are a bit glitchy, though.

A pretty obvious backroute, but judging from the Genesis thread in Game Help I'm the first person to take it to the extreme, so I claim this as my record:

Genesis Present 30 (Final Impediment) -- use no more than 5 builders

Another one I've been trying to push to the extreme -- not sure if this is quite minimal yet though:

Genesis Sunsoft 7 (Everyone turn left -- Part two): use no more than 7 miners

Hooray!  I'm home for Christmas Break!  I plan to spend some time this week working out more high scores for Lemmings Revolution, but not tonight.  I've played enough Lemmings for one night trying to confirm another fewer-builder challenge in the original Lemmings.  Unfortunately, I never did execute it correctly, but I was able to confirm that it is possible:

Taxing 15 (What an AWESOME Level):  Save 100% without builders.

There's a few parts where you have to send a climber up and dig down to free the crowd, but other than that, it is fairly straightforward.  It gets tough at the end, though, because the climber can't ascend the last hill.  I had to use, among other things, ccexplore's Tame 20 trick to get up there.  Unfortunately, I messed up at the very end, while trying to release a blocker (the %#@$ basher went the wrong way).

@ahribar: I took both of those to the extreme. :) You can see how I did Final Impediment with 5 builders in the "Lemmings Ark.." thread. I did "Everyone turn left -- Part two" with five miners, haven't been able to get 4.

I seem to have found a 48/50 solution to wild 15 that doesn't use what I think is the wild 15 trick. However it is hard to execute. Could someone who knows what the wild 15 trick is PM/Email me? I just want to make sure. (it would be glitch free btw)

I think I just figured out what it really is, and it turns out that my solution would use it.

I didn't have enough time to answer.

I sent a reply.

Note that I haven't executed it yet, but I'm sure it would work.

I know too many glitches. Is it the sliding glitch?

I found another solution, but it's glitch free. It will take a some adjustments to get it to work. I'll tell you about it when I succeed.

If I can figure out how to delay the crowd enough then I should be able to do it without glitches. Otherwise I'll have to use two glitches. I sent a PM that says what the glitches are.

I found a modification that I'm sure would work. It will use one glitch.

EDIT: Shift key problem fixed.

EDIT2: I have proven that it is possible. The only problem was that a lemming leaked so I saved 47.

EDIT3: I did it! I sent a PM explaining it.

My pevious idea was to go through the steel at the end, but it seems to extend too far out.

EDIT: Hmmm.. if you are the next person to post in this thread, then this page will consist entirely of cce, tseug, cee, tseug.....

C-C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER!!!!

I'm glad I figured out the tricky 9 without builder solution :)
I've made a level where you need the same glitch to get trough a very thick layer of steel,it looks very funny when you actually break trough :p

I've got two pieces of news:

1.  I've now confirmed (and executed) the 100% no-builder solution to Taxing 15 -- What an AWESOME Level.  Contrary to what I previously thought, it does not require the Tame 20 glitch at the end.

2.  I have just 14 levels to go in Lemmings Revolution before I can post my best scores.  So far, I am through 88 levels, and I have saved everybody in 70 of them.

I still wonder what the tame 20 glitch is...it doesn't seem to be the sliding glitch or the blocker glitch...

I went back to mayhem 29 to look for a lose 2 solution, and I think I found one (maybe.....it needs some checking...). It wouldn't work on the SNES though because of the water.

Well, I just found it!  It's now confirmed:

Mayhem 29:  Save 78/80 (97%)

I actually found this before I ever read tseug's post.  It's just a coincidence that we both thought of it at the same time!

My solution requires every skill except for one blocker.  By far, the hardest part was getting the lemmings spaced out enough so that the leaders had time to build and block in the end.  It took me 20-30 tries before I got the timing right.

Here's a hint that helps you save a couple of skills along the way (highlight to read):
[highlight]You don't need any bashers to get past the broken pillar to the left of the entrance.  A well-placed digger and builder will do the job.[/highlight]

More hints are available upon request.

That sounds different from what I had in mind. Could PM me about the general idea?

Ah nevermind, I think I see how that can work out ([highlight]steel bashing?[/highlight]).  Good job!  [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

Now I have the loopy idea that it may be possible to lose 1 on mayhem 29. I am really not sure.

EDIT: There's a bit of a builder shortage....

Which versions is the lose 2 solution possible on?

The Lose 2 solution that I found will only work on versions that don't have water.



That's correct.  You only need two builders while freeing the crowd.  The hard part was getting everybody spaced out right so that there were two lemmings in front of the crowd at the end of the level.  [highlight]I had to use three blockers in the entrance area to get it to work right.[/highlight]

I can almost lose one... but that broken pillar is a nuisance...

Going back to Wild 15, I just figured out another way to get 48/50! ;D  The only glitch it uses is the "digging through steel" glitch at the end of the level.  Highlight the text below for details.

[highlight]1.  The first two lems from the left entrance bomb as soon as they enter the level.
2.  The first two lems from the right entrance block (one near the trap and the other under the entrance).
3.  The third lem from the left entrance walks into the hole created by the bombers.  He bashes right after walking back and forth in the hole once.
4.  When the basher runs out of material to bash, make him build at the last possible moment. If the basher and bombers were placed correctly, nobody will leak through before the bridge is completed.  
5.  Once the builder reaches the wall, make him bash.  Speed up the release rate to 99 a stroke or two before he reaches the first blocker.  
6.  Once the basher is past the trap, lemmings will start to walk out of the tunnel.  Make the second one block on top of the white staircase.
7.  The new leader builds when he reaches the right half of the chain.
8.  Release the blocker by bashing under his feet.
9.  The leader digs near the steel on the right so that he goes all of the way down to the exit.  With luck, the last of the lems will catch up just before the digger breaks through, and nobody will fall too far.[/highlight]

This just barely works and it may be difficult to reproduce, especially since the two bombers and all three bashers require precision.  Also, the timing was incredibly tight on two separate occasions.  The first builder finished just before another lem caught up, and the final digger had just one pixel to go when the last few lems finally caught up.

I'm assuming that this solution is different from ccexplore's and tseug's solutions, as it doesn't use any glitches other than the steel digging at the end.  There's no "Wild 15 glitch" in my solution that I know of.

That is almost exactly the same as my first 47/50 solution. The only difference is that no lems catch up to the builder and are lost. I didn't feel leak tweaking that because of the time limit.

That's no coincidence.  I was looking for ways to conceivably get 48/50, and since I still don't know what the Wild 15 Glitch is, using the principle behind your 47/50 solution was the only thing that came to mind.  In getting 48/50, I didn't have any problems with the clock at all -- I still had about 10-15 seconds left.  I will admit that I was very lucky because I got everything to work without much tweaking (it could have been a lot nastier).

I still don't know ccexplore's 48/50 solution, but this proves that the Wild 15 Glitch is not necessary for 48/50 (although it probably makes things a lot easier).